22-03-24 - CARB MEETING

VIDEOCONFERENCE MEETING

STATE OF CALIFORNIA

AIR RESOURCES BOARD

ZOOM PLATFORM

THURSDAY, MARCH 24, 2022

9:01 A.M.

JAMES F. PETERS, CSR

CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER

LICENSE NUMBER 10063

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC 916.476.3171

APPEARANCES

BOARD MEMBERS:

Liane Randolph, Chair

Sandra Berg, Vice Chair

John Balmes, MD

Hector De La Torre

John Eisenhut

Senator Dean Florez

Assemblymember Eduardo Garcia

Davina Hurt

Gideon Kracov

Senator Connie Leyva

Tania Pacheco-Werner, PhD

Barbara Riordan

Supervisor Phil Serna

Dan Sperling, PhD

Diane Takvorian

Supervisor Nora Vargas

STAFF:

Richard Corey, Executive Officer

Edie Chang, Deputy Executive Officer, Planning, Freight,

and Toxics

Chanell Fletcher, Deputy Executive Officer, Environmental

Justice

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC 916.476.3171

APPEARANCES CONTINUED

STAFF:

Annette Hebert, Deputy Executive Officer, Southern

California Headquarters and Mobile Source Compliance

Edna Murphy, Deputy Executive Officer, Internal Operations

Rajinder Sahota, Deputy Executive Officer, Climate Change

and Research

Craig Segall, Deputy Executive Officer, Mobile Sources and

Incentives

Ellen Peter, Chief Counsel

Heather Arias, Division Chief, Transportation and Toxics

Division (TTD)

Matthew Botill, Division Chief, Industrial Strategies

Division (ISD)

Richard Boyd, Assistant Division Chief, TTD

Maureen Hand, Air Resources Engineer, Climate Change

Planning Section, ISD

Tracy Haynes, Staff Air Pollution Specialist, Freight

Technology Section, TTD

Melissa Houchin, Air Resources Engineer, Freight

Technology Section, TTD

Stephanie Kato, Staff Air Pollution Specialist, Energy

Section, ISD

Shelby Livingston, Manager, Program Operation Section, ISD

Gabriel Monroe, Senior Attorney, Legal Office

Adam Moreno, Staff Air Pollution Specialist, Program

Operation Section, ISD

David Quiros, Manager, Freight Technology Section, TTD

Jordan Ramalingam, Air Pollution Specialist, Fuels

Evaluation Section, ISD

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC 916.476.3171

APPEARANCES CONTINUED

STAFF:

Bonnie Soriano, Branch Chief, Freight Activity Branch, TTD

Alex Wang, Senior Attorney Legal Office

Alex Yiu, Staff Air Pollution Specialist, Program

Operation Section, ISD

CALIFORNIA ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY:

Secretary Jared Blumenfeld

ALSO PRESENT:

Sarah Aird, Californians for Pesticide Reform

Joy Alafia, Western Propane Gas Association

Tom Babineau, Rypos

Graham Balch, Green Yachts

Rebecca Baskins, California Advanced Biofuels Alliance

Christine Batikian, Port of Los Angeles

Shawn Bennett, Baydelta Maritime, LLC

Sylvia Betancourt, Long Beach Alliance for Children with

Asthma

Michael Breslin, American Waterways Operators

Steven Brink, California Forestry Association

Teresa Bui, Pacific Environment

Jennifer Case, New Leaf Biofuel

Connie Cho, Communities for a Better Environment

Max Cohen, Curtin Maritime Corp.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC 916.476.3171

APPEARANCES CONTINUED

ALSO PRESENT:

Dave Cook, Rail Propulsion Systems

Jon Costantino

Charles Davidson, ICSR

Sarah Deslauriers, California Association of Sanitation

Agencies

Jerry Desmond, Recreational Boaters of California

Jaime Diamond, Stardust Sportfishing

Martha Dina Argüello, Physicians for Social

Responsibility, LA

Harvey Eder, Public Solar Power Coalition

Evan Edgar, Edgar & Associates, Inc.

Tim Ekstrom, Royal Star Sportfishing

Supervisor Nathan Fletcher, San Diego County

Ken Franke, Sportfishing Association of California

Tim French, Truck and Engine Manufacturers Association

Catherine Garoupa White, PhD, Central Valley Air Quality

Coalition

Josh Gaylord

Elliot Gonzales, Sierra Club

Richard Grow

Lauren Gularte, Water Emergency Transportation Authority

Leah Harnish, American Waterways Operators

Scott Hedderich, Renewable Energy Group

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC 916.476.3171

APPEARANCES CONTINUED

ALSO PRESENT:

Julie Henderson, Director, California Department of

Pesticide Regulation

Jim Holden, Fish for Life

Matt Holmes, Little Manila Rising

Regina Hsu, Earthjustice

Gary Hughes, Biofuelwatch

Greg Hurner, Hurner Government Relations and Advocacy

Virginia Jameson, Deputy Secretary, California Department

of Food and Agriculture

Steve Jepsen, Southern California Alliance of Publicly

Owned Treatment Works

Kristin Joseph, RE Site Engineering, Inc.

Donna Kalez, Dana Wharf Sportfishing

Ryan Kenny, Clean Energy

Ameen Khan, California Environmental Voters

Wayne Kotow, Coastal Conservation Association of

California

Nilda Langston

John Larrea, California League of Food Producers

Julia Levin, Bioenergy Association of California

Andrea Lueker, California Association of Harbor Masters

and Port Captains

Rick Luliucci, The Vane Brothers Company

Jim Luttjohann, Love Catalina Island, Catalina Island

Tourism Authority

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC 916.476.3171

APPEARANCES CONTINUED

ALSO PRESENT:

Ryan Mack, MP Strategic Group

Bill Magavern, Coalition for Clean Air

Paul Mason, Pacific Forest Trust

Julia May, Communities for a Better Environment

David McCloy, San Francisco Bar Pilots

Barry McCooey, M&H Engineering

Art Mead, Crowley Maritime

Jeanne Merrill, California Climate and Agriculture Network

Scott Merritt, Merritt Waterline Solutions

Jacqueline Moore, Pacific Merchant Shipping Association

Lynn Muench, The American Waterways Operators

Graham Noyes, Low Carbon Fuels Coalition

George Peridas, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

Rick Powers, Golden Gate Fishermen's Association

Ernie Prieto, Oceanside Sea Center

Leela Rao, Port of Long Beach

David Reynolds, PTL Marine

Will Roberts, Foss Maritime

Max Rosenberg, Vane Line Bunkering, LLC

Laura Rosenberger Haider

Mariela Ruacho, American Lung Association

Peter Schrappen, American Waterways Operators

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC 916.476.3171

APPEARANCES CONTINUED

ALSO PRESENT:

Harry Simpson, Crimson Renewable Energy Holdings

Mikhael Skvarla, California Council for Environmental and

Economic Balance

Richard Smith, Westar Marine Services

Steven Smith, Phillips 66

William Smith, Riptide Charters

Robert Spiegel, California Manufacturers and Technology

Association

Misagh Tabrizi, Nett Technologies

Sharifa Taylor, Communities for a Better Environment

Alison Torres, Eastern Municipal Water District

Frank Ursitti, H&M Landing

Jim Verburg, Western States Petroleum Association

Floyd Vergara, Clean Fuels Alliance America

Virgil Welch, California Carbon Capture Coalition

Sam Wilson, Union of Concerned Scientists

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC 916.476.3171

INDEX

PAGE

Call or Order 1

Roll Call 1

Opening Remarks 2

Item 22-5-1

Chair Randolph 5

Executive Officer Corey 9

Staff Presentation 11

Supervisor Nathan Fletcher 29

Ken Franke 31

Jaime Diamond 34

Sam Wilson 36

David Reynolds 37

Richard Smith 39

Ameen Khan 41

Christine Batikian 42

Jacqueline Moore 44

Jim Holden 46

Peter Schrappen 47

Regina Hsu 49

Ernie Prieto 51

Jerry Desmond 52

Lauren Gularte 53

David McCloy 55

Donna Kalez 56

Tim Ekstrom 59

Shawn Bennett 61

Barry McCooey 63

Art Mead 65

Leela Rao 66

Scott Merritt 69

Rick Powers 70

Wayne Kotow 72

Kristin Joseph 73

Steven Brink 74

Jim Luttjohann 76

Max Cohen 78

Will Roberts 80

Elliot Gonzales 82

Leah Harnish 83

Lynn Muench 85

Rick Luliucci 86

Graham Balch 88

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC 916.476.3171

INDEX

PAGE

Item 22-5-1(continued)

Michael Breslin 90

Max Rosenberg 92

Rebecca Baskins 94

Misagh Tabrizi 95

Frank Ursitti 96

Andrea Lueker 98

Dr. Catherine Garoupa White 99

Bill Magavern 101

Mariela Ruacho 102

Floyd Vergara 103

Teresa Bui 105

Tom Babineau 107

Matt Holmes 109

Jennifer Case 111

Nilda Langston 113

Sylvia Betancourt 114

Harvey Eder 116

William Smith 118

Tim French 119

Harry Simpson 120

Josh Gaylord 122

Scott Hedderich 124

Greg Hurner 126

Ryan Mack 127

Staff Comments 129

Board Discussion and Q&A 132

Motion 160

Vote 160

Afternoon Session 162

Item 22-5-2

Chair Randolph 162

Executive Officer Corey 166

Staff Presentation 168

CalEPA Secretary Jared Blumenfeld 202

CDFA Deputy Secretary Virginia Jameson 208

CDPR Director Julie Henderson 210

Martha Dina Argüello 215

Sharifa Taylor 218

Connie Cho 220

Dr. Catherine Garoupa White 225

Matt Holmes 228

Jim Verburg 232

Richard Grow 234

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC 916.476.3171

INDEX

PAGE

Item 22-5-2(continued)

Joy Alafia 237

Jeanne Merrill 239

Mariela Ruacho 240

Virgil Welch 241

Ryan Kenny 244

Evan Edgar 245

Julia Levin 248

Mikhael Skvarla 250

Steve Jepsen 253

George Peridas 255

Paul Mason 257

Graham Noyes 259

Sarah Deslauriers 261

Jon Costantino 264

Gary Hughes 266

John Larrea 268

Charles Davidson 270

Sarah Aird 272

Robert Spiegel 275

Steven Smith 277

Alison Torres 279

Julia May 282

Board Discussion and Q&A 284

Public Comment

David Cook 325

Harvey Eder 327

Laura Rosenberger Haider 330

Adjournment 331

Reporter's Certificate 332

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC 916.476.3171

PROCEEDINGS

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you very much. Good

morning. The March 24th public meeting of the California

Air Resources Board will come to order.

Board Clerk, will you please call the roll?

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Yes.

Dr. Balmes?

BOARD MEMBER BALMES: Here.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Mr. De La Torre?

Mr. Eisenhut?

BOARD MEMBER EISENHUT: Yes, here.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Senator Florez?

BOARD MEMBER FLOREZ: Florez, here.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Assembly Member Garcia?

Ms. Hurt?

BOARD MEMBER HURT: Present.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Mr. Kracov?

BOARD MEMBER KRACOV: Here.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Senator Leyva?

Dr. Pacheco-Werner?

BOARD MEMBER PACHECO-WERNER: Here.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Mrs. Riordan?

BOARD MEMBER RIORDAN: Here.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Supervisor Serna?

BOARD MEMBER SERNA: Here.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Professor Sperling?

BOARD MEMBER SPERLING: Here.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Ms. Takvorian?

BOARD MEMBER TAKVORIAN: Here.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Supervisor Vargas?

BOARD MEMBER VARGAS: Vargas, here

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Vice Chair Berg?

VICE CHAIR BERG: Here.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Chair Randolph?

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Here.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Madam Chair, we have a

quorum.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you very much.

I'd like to begin with a house -- few house

keeping items. In accordance with Assembly Bill 361, as

extended by Governor Newsom's Executive Order N-1-22, we a

are today's meeting remotely using zoom with public

participation options available both by phone and Zoom.

A closed captioning feature is available for

those of you joining us in the Zoom environment. In order

to turn on the subtitles, please look for a button labeled

CC at the bottom of the Zoom window, as shown in the

example on the screen now. I would like to take this

opportunity to remind everyone to speak clearly and from a

quiet location, whether you are joining us in Zoom or

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

calling in by phone.

Interpretation services will be provided today in

Spanish. If you are joining us using Zoom, there is a

button labeled "Interpretation" on the Zoom screen. Click

on that interpretation button and select Spanish to hear

the meeting in Spanish. I want to remind all of our

speakers to speak slowly to allow the interpreters the

opportunity to accurately interpret your comments.

(Interpreter translated in Spanish)

CHAIR RANDOLPH: I will now ask the Board Clerk

to provide more details on today's procedures.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Yes. Thank you, Chair.

Good morning, everyone. My name is Katie

Estabrook and I am one of the Board Clerks. And I will

provide some information on how public participation will

be organized for today's meeting. If you wish to make a

verbal comment on one of the Board items or during the

open comment period at the end of today's meeting, you

must be joining using Zoom webinar or calling in by phone.

If you are currently watching the webcast on CAL-SPAN, but

you wish to comment, please register for the Zoom webinar

or call in. Information for both can be found on the

public agenda for today's meeting.

To make a verbal comment, we will be using the

raise hand feature in Zoom. If you wish to speak on a

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

Board item, please virtually raise your hand as soon as

the item has begun to let us know you wish to speak. To

do this, if you are using a computer or tablet, there is a

raise band button. If you are calling in on the phone,

dial star nine to raise your hand. Even if you previously

indicated which item you wish to speak on when you

registered, you must raise your hand at the beginning of

the item, so that you can be added to the queue and so

that your chance to speak will not be skipped.

If you will be giving your verbal comment in

Spanish and require an interpreter's assistance, please

indicate so at the beginning of your testimony and our

translator will assist you. During your comment, please

pause after each sentence to allow the interpreter to

translate your comment into English. When the comment

period starts, the order of commenters will be determined

by who raises their hand first.

I will call each commenter by name and will

activate each commenter's audio when it is your turn to

speak. For those calling in by phone, I will identify you

by the last three digits of your phone number. We will

not be showing a list of commenters. However, I will be

announcing the next three or so commenters in this queue,

so you are ready to testify and know who's coming up next.

Please note that you will not appear by video during your

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

testimony.

I would also like to remind everyone to please

state your name for the record before you speak. This is

important in the remote meeting setting. And it is

especially important for those calling in by phone to

testify. There will be a time limit for each commenter.

That normal time is three minutes, though that could

change based on the Chair's discretion. During public

testimony, you will see a timer on the screen. For those

calling in by phone, we will run the timer and let you

know when you have 30 seconds left and when your time is

up. If you require Spanish interpretation for your

comment, your time will be doubled.

If you wish to submit written comments today,

please visit CARB's, "Send Us Your Comments", page or look

at the public agenda on our webpage for links to send

these documents electronically. Comments will be accepted

on each item until the Chair closes the item.

If you experience any technical difficulties,

please call (805)772-2715 so an IT person can assist you.

This number is also noted on the public agenda.

Thank you, Chair, I'll turn it back to you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you.

The first item on the agenda today is Item

22-5-1, proposed amendments to the commercial harbor craft

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

regulation. If you wish to comment on this item, please

click the raise hand button or dial nine -- dial -- sorry,

dial star nine now. We will call on you when we get to

the public comment portion of this item.

Today, the Board will hear staff's proposal to

expand emissions-related requirements for commercial

harbor craft that operate in regulated California waters.

The proposed amendments would build on the current

Commercial Harbor Craft Regulation by expanding the

requirements to additional vessel types and proposing more

stringent engine performance standards, including

technology forcing zero-emission requirements for marine

vessels.

As the Board knows, California needs to continue

to reduce emissions from mobile sources in order to meet

critical community, clean air, and climate goals.

Achieving these goals will provide much needed public

health protection for the millions of Californians that

still breathe unhealthy air, reduce the public's exposure

to toxic air contaminants, and help meet California's

State Implementation Plan commitment to attain national

ambient air quality standards.

To attain these health-based standards, we must

reduce oxides of nitrogen in the South Coast Air Basin by

45 percent by 2023 and an additional 55 percent by 2031,

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

and an additional 70 percent by 2037. The proposed

amendments are additionally designed to reduce emissions

of greenhouse gases and are consistent with Governor

Newsom's Executive Order N-79-20, which directs CARB and

other State agencies to develop strategies to achieve 100

percent zero emissions from off-road vehicles and

equipment by 2035, where feasible.

This is the second of two Board hearings for the

proposed amendments. At our hearing in November, we heard

testimony from a range of stakeholders regarding this

regulation. Many stressed the importance of the health

benefits from these emissions reductions, while others

expressed concerns about potential negative impacts on

their businesses.

CARB staff listened to everyone carefully and

deeply, and at our direction, continued working with

stakeholders to identify ways to ensure that this

regulation can achieve the emissions reductions we need,

support the advancement of clean technology, and respond

to concerns raised by stakeholders.

Following up from that meeting, our staff met

with many stakeholders, and our office met virtually --

our Chair's office met virtually with other regulated

sectors. And as part of their work, CARB staff, along

with Mr. Corey and one of my senior advisors, traveled to

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

San Diego where they met with staff from San Diego Air

Pollution Control District, advocates from the

Environmental Health Coalition, and the local commercial

sports fishermen.

The trip allowed staff the opportunity to better

understand the challenges faced both by community

residents and the local commercial sports fishermen. As a

result of the continued dialogue and work of staff, I'm

confident that the regulation before us today will ensure

cleaner air in port communities across the state and do so

in a way that allows industry partners the time to not

only overcome key challenges, but also be partners in the

advancement of new cleaner technology.

The 15-day changes proposed by staff will provide

the commercial sportsfishing industry greater time to

implement cleaner engines and collaborate with CARB staff

to advance hybrid and zero-emission technologies.

Following today, staff will continue to consider

zero-emission contingency measures for commercial harbor

craft like tugboats to bring critical emissions reductions

to our state's most impacted communities.

Finally, I want to thank the legislators who have

engaged with me on this item, including Assembly Member

O'Donnell, former Assembly Member Burke, and Senator

McGuire. These partnerships and communications help build

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

better outcomes, such as the inclusion of a work group in

the proposed resolution as recommended by Senator McGuire,

and streamline compliance deadline extensions as

recommended by former Assembly Member Burke.

Mr. Corey, would you please introduce the item?

EXECUTIVE OFFICER COREY: Yes. Thanks, Chair.

In 2008, the Board adopted the initial Commercial

Harbor Craft Regulation which reduces emissions from

diesel engines on commercial harbor craft. The regulation

was amended in 2010 to include additional vessel

categories. And in 2017, the Board directed staff to

provide concepts to control pollution from large freight

facilities including seaports. In response to the Board

direction and projected public health benefits, staff has

developed the proposed amendments for your consideration.

The proposed amendments we're presenting to you

today further expand in-use requirements for commercial

harbor craft to more vessel categories, create more

stringent performance standards for diesel engines,

introduce mandates and incentives for zero-emission harbor

craft, and establish requirements for facilities to

provide supporting infrastructure and increased reporting

to CARB.

The proposed amendments reduce emissions of

criteria pollutants and toxic air contaminants in

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

communities near seaports, marinas, and harbors, where

residents are often disproportionately exposed to air

pollution. Many of these communities are AB 617 selected

communities and are recognized as disadvantaged due in

part to impacts from marine-related air pollution.

Reducing harbor craft related emissions helps to

reduce the cumulative exposure to toxic emissions and is

critical to meeting California's federal clean air

standards.

That being said, we acknowledge and recognize

that what is proposed will be challenging for some

California businesses, especially certain small

businesses. As such, we followed Board direction from the

November hearing and are reporting back. Staff has

conducted extensive outreach since we were last in front

of you for this item, including a four-and-a-half hour

webinar to discuss incentive opportunities and ways to

respond to your direction, and as you noted, a trip to San

Diego, which I had the opportunity to participate in.

Various avenues for streamlining extension requests for

fleets that experience financial and technical challenges

in meeting the requirements have been explored and will be

discussed as part of the staff presentation.

In some cases, the extensions being proposed

could extend out to approximately 2034 to provide more

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

time for compliance. In addition, we're proposing an

additional extension pathway for commercial passenger

fishing vessels that have upgraded all their engines to

meet the tier three standards.

We have assembled, released, and discussed

information with stakeholders regarding funding programs

available for harbor craft. We're also introducing a

proposed technology and implementation review, a

commitment to continue collaborating with the sportfishing

industry and release a mid-term review by 2028, as well as

a commitment to explore a zero-emission contingency

measure.

Today, staff is reporting back on how your

direction from November has been achieved and is

presenting the proposed amendments for your consideration

and final vote.

I'll now ask Melissa Houchin of the

Transportation and Toxics Division to begin the staff

presentation.

Melissa.

(Thereupon a slide presentation.)

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: Thank you,

Mr. Corey and good morning, Chair Randolph, and members of

the Board. Today, I'll be going over staff's proposed

amendments to the Commercial Harbor Craft Regulation and

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

staff's response to Board direction from our first hearing

in November.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: As a quick

reminder, I'll start with the current commercial harbor

craft or CHC Regulation which sets requirements for harbor

craft to help the state meet clean air commitments and

protect communities near ports, marinas, and harbors. It

includes requirements for reporting using ultra low-sulfur

diesel fuel and accelerating turnover to Tier 2 or 3

engines for some vessel categories.

The compliance dates in the current regulation

run from 2009 to 2022. At the end of this year, the

current Harbor Craft Regulation will be considered fully

implemented. For the past few years, staff has been

developing a proposal to amend the regulation. This

process has resulted in the proposed amendments released

this past September, which would require zero-emission

marine technology for vessels where feasible and cleaner

combustion on all other vessel types. Staff presented the

proposed amendments on November 19th, 2021, where we heard

public comments and received direction from the Board.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: This figure

was shown in our November presentation and is important to

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

touch on again. It illustrates that in the absence of the

proposed amendments, commercial harbor craft would emit

165 tons per year of diesel particulate matter, or DPM,

and 15.1 tons per day of oxides of nitrogen, or NOx, in

2023. Harbor craft are one of the top three emissions

sources at ports and result in a near source cancer risk

of greater than 900 chances in a million.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: Now, I'll

recap the proposal. In support of Executive Order

N-79-20, zero-emission requirements were a top priority of

the proposal and are established where feasible, including

in 2025, new excursion vessels must be zero emission

capable. And in 2026, all short-run ferries must

transition to full zero-emission.

We also estimate that over 100 vessels will be

operating with zero-emission capability by the 2030s

through two compliance options in the proposal that allow

and encourage zero-emission operations through alternative

controls, which will be discussed in a few slides.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: Where

zero-emission is not yet feasible, the amendments propose

cleaner combustion standards. To achieve the greatest

emission reductions and public health benefits, the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

proposed amendments would not only require the cleanest

U.S. EPA certified engine available, but also the use of a

diesel particulate filter, or DPF.

The proposal also requires that Tier 4 engines

must be purchased if they are certified for the size and

duty cycle of an engine. The PM standards required by the

proposed amendments would harmonize with the newest

on-road engine standards.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: This graphic

from our November hearing shows the originally proposed

compliance dates for each vessel category and potential

extensions available for feasibility and financial

hardship. Compliance dates shown in green depend on the

vessel type, engine tier, and engine model year, with

dirtier engines having earlier compliance dates.

The blue bars show the possible compliance

extension periods if vessel replacement is required. The

dark squares mark when vessel replacement may be required

after the extensions start to expire. Most extensions

expire December 31st, 2034, which is shown by the vertical

black line at the right end of the figure.

Note that commercial fishing vessels are required

to upgrade Tier 1 and older engines to Tier 3, which is a

feasible modification on virtually all in-use vessels and

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

therefore no compliance extensions for feasibility are

necessary. These compliance extensions provide

opportunities for fleets dealing with technical and

financial difficulties additional time to comply; in some

cases, up to 13 years from now.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: As presented

in November, staff has built in two alternative compliance

options into the proposed memberships. The first is

called alternative control of emissions. This is a plan

created by an operator that will result in equivalent

emission reductions as following the model year compliance

schedule. The proposed amendments also include credits to

incentivize the adoption of zero-emission technologies.

An operator deploying a zero-emission or zero-emission

capable vessel would receive additional compliance times

for another vessel in the fleet, three years for a

zero-emission capable vessel and seven years for a full

zero-emission vessel. Operators could pick one of these

two options for their fleet or groups of engines.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: Staff also

proposed that vessels with a home base in or adjacent to

disadvantaged communities have additional stringency under

the proposed amendments.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

Disadvantaged communities would be identified as

the highest scoring 25 percent of census tracts from

CalEnviroScreen. Vessels with a home base in or adjacent

to disadvantaged communities would have more stringent

low-use thresholds. The proposed amendments also require

a demonstration of no increase impacts on disadvantaged

communities from alternative compliance plans or

zero-emission credits. The proposal requires that the

additional compliance time given to diesel-powered vessels

must not operate in these communities.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: As you know,

it is extremely important that we reduce emissions from

all harbor craft in order to attain federal air quality

standards and protect portside communities. Since

November, we've released the Draft State SIP strategy,

which identifies a shortfall in emission reductions needed

to meet the ozone standard in South Coast.

These figures from the November hearing reiterate

the estimated emissions in 2035 with and without the

implementation of the proposed amendments with diesel PM

emissions on the left in tons per year and NOx emissions

on the right in tons per day. Statewide, the proposed

amendments would result in an 89 percent reduction in

diesel particulate matter emissions and a 54 percent

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

reduction in oxides of nitrogen emissions in 2035.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: In November,

we also showed you the cancer risk from harbor craft in

the South Coast and San Francisco Bay Area air basins.

Here, we show you again how far the emissions from harbor

craft are felt in these high pollution area.

The next slide shows the reductions in cancer

risk the proposed amendments would have on these two air

basins.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: As you can

see, the area of impact and cancer risk level are

drastically decreased. The proposed amendments reduce

cancer risk to over 22 million residents, reduce the

population weighted cancer risk from greater than 10 to

only 1 chance per million, and they eliminate cancer risk

of greater than 100 chances per million in the two study

areas.

This image of the South Coast Air Basin shows

many disadvantaged communities shaded gray that would no

longer have an exposure to cancer risk from harbor craft.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: The Board

discussion in November directed staff to explore and

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

report back on four topic areas. The first was to

continue outreach to stakeholders on funding opportunities

available for harbor craft and to reach out to funding

programs to help facilitate harbor craft owners'

participation in the programs, specifically looking at

small businesses and sportfishing vessel operations to

facilitate the transition to cleaner technology for these

operators.

The second was to reevaluate the compliance

extension process, specifically looking at lowering the

cost and workload necessary to utilize extensions.

The third was to regularly evaluate the status of

marine technology, both zero emission and cleaner

combustion, and report on the progress of commercial

technology and implementation of the amendments.

The fourth was to evaluate the opportunity for a

zero-emission contingency measure to support State

Implementation Plan progress.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: Before our

November hearing, staff conducted over 400 meetings, site

visits, calls, and emails with stakeholders. We released

draft cost materials and regulatory text for feedback from

the public and conducted five workshops.

--o0o--

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: After the

November hearing, the Board's direction regard -- and the

Board's direction regarding additional outreach, staff

conducted over 30 virtual meetings and two in-person site

visits with stakeholders.

Staff also held a four-hour webinar in January to

discuss funding available for harbor craft, as well as

staff's proposed response to Board direction from

November. In addition, staff participated in over 80

additional calls and emails with stakeholders.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: In response

to requests from stakeholders for public records, staff

also posted additional materials on our website, such as

the emission inventory, final cost workbooks,

informational fact sheets, health analysis methodology,

and air dispersion modeling input and output files.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: Key topics

raised by stakeholders through the outreach since November

broadly include comments related to feasibility

affordability, and emission reductions. The next few

slides will cover these and staff's responses.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: Many

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

operators have expressed concern over the availability and

performance of Tier 4 plus DPF technology. As highlighted

in our rulemaking package and at the November hearing,

there are 22 models of Tier 4 marine engines commercially

available. In addition, there are several U.S. EPA

certified Tier 3 engines that come with a DPF that are

available for auxiliary use.

Tier 3 and 4 engines and DPFs are proven

technology already in use in other sectors and will

continue to be subject to U.S. Coast Guard design

standards and inspections.

We also received comments on the affordability of

replacement vessels and the viability of these costs,

particularly for small businesses. Operators with these

concerns would be able to apply for the feasibility

compliance extensions for up to six or eight additional

years to comply. Staff included extensions in the

original proposal to allow small businesses to plan for

compliance costs and develop price structures to pass

these costs on to consumers.

Several comments also touched on the difficulty

of obtaining incentive funding. Although there are

funding opportunities. In order to provide the most

conservative estimate of compliance costs, the analysis

assumes no incentive funding is granted for any vessel

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

category.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: We've

received comments regarding the accuracy of vessel

population inputs in the emissions inventory. Staff used

data and other inputs from extensive industry dialogue and

considered all relevant governmental database sources when

finalizing vessel population and other emission inventory

inputs.

We've also received comments from the articulated

tug barge, or ATB industry, indicating that ATBs should be

included under the ocean-going vessels category. ATBs are

comprised of two vessels, a tugboat and a barge vessel,

that operate in tandem. They typically carry refined

petrochemical products such as fuels. Although ATBs can

perform similar duties to ocean-going vessels,

particularly medium-range tankers, ATBs are harbor craft

and compete with other types of harbor craft directly. In

addition, the U.S. Coast Guard establishes separate

requirements for ATBs than it does ocean-going vessel

tankers.

In response to the Board resolution from the new

At Berth Regulation adopted in 2020, staff has worked

extensively with ATB industry, and incorporated dedicated

provisions in the alternative control of emissions section

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

for ATBs to use capture and control systems on auxiliary

engines while at the terminal.

Staff's proposal to continue regulating ATBs as

CHC would also achieve significant emission reductions

while the vessels are in transit within California waters.

We have also received comments requesting that commercial

passenger fishing vessel, or CPFVs, only be required to

turn over to Tier 3 now and zero emission later for the

final transition. As documented in our staff report, the

CPFV category has the lowest feasibility of any vessel

category for repowering to meet the Tier 4 plus DPF

performance standard.

In addition, the majority of CPFVs are owned and

operated by small businesses, which are generally not in a

strong position to finance feasibility evaluations to

apply for compliance extensions.

Because of the unique feasibility issues, many of

these companies would be granted compliance extensions

based on engine technology available today. Therefore,

for this category of vessels only, early upgrade to Tier 3

followed by a transition in 2034 to the Tier 4 plus DPF

performance standard, or zero emission, would provide a

unique opportunity for early emission reductions while

preserving the long-term emission benefits of the rule, as

discussed in more detail on the next slide.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: These

recommended changes would apply to CPFVs. First, staff

proposes a 15-day change to establish a compliance option

for CPFVs to receive an extension to the end of 2034, if

vessels are upgrade to Tier 3 by the end of 2024. This

option would require some additional data gathering as

part of the already required annual reporting to help

staff understand financial impacts of upgrading technology

and it would require a commitment to collaborate with CARB

on zero-emission advancement.

This new compliance pathway would give operators

additional time before the next compliance step, while

providing near-term reductions through Tier 3 upgrades by

2024 and providing a streamlined, less expensive extension

process.

Second, through resolution, staff is proposing a

mid-term evaluation which will provide an opportunity to

discuss if zero-emission technology should be proposed as

the next step instead of Tier 4 plus DPF. Staff would

provide the Board with the mid-term evaluation by 2028.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: Now, we will

transition into staff's response to Board direction from

November. As previously mentioned, the first area of

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

focus was outreach with stakeholders on funding. The

Board directed us to continue outreach with the affected

industry, which we have done by hosing our January webinar

and holding over 30 individual meetings with stakeholders

since our November hearing.

At our webinar, we provided detailed information

on four funding programs and invited experts to answer

questions from industry on their respective programs. We

will continue to have expanded dialogue with our funding

program partners to identify, communicate, and maximize

the use of funding opportunities.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: The second

area the Board directed staff to reevaluate was the

compliance extension process, specifically looking at ways

to lower burdens on operators. As a reminder, the

proposed amendments include five compliance extensions

that operators may apply for, if they meet the extension

criteria.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: Staff has

accordingly reexamined the compliance extension procedures

and believes that those provisions conform to the Board's

directives.

Staff has determined the current proposed

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

procedures already provide owners the flexibility

demonstrate the technical and feasibility of modifying

existing vessels by using readily accessible information

in lieu of contracting with a third-party naval architect

for an individualized assessment for a specific vessel.

If applicable for their vessel category, such as

sportfishing vessels that cannot be modified due to their

the wood or fiberglass vessel hull material, an owner

could use the study published by the California Maritime

Academy to demonstrate it would not be technically

feasible to modify their vessel, assuming no new engines

have become certified that change the CMA studies

conclusions. The $62,000 feasibility study estimate in

our cost analysis was conservative, if an operator would

have needed to perform their own independent

vessel-specific study.

Staff commits to continually informing, updating,

and communicating with affected industry on issues

regarding all aspects of the proposed amendments, and

especially regarding the compliance extensions and

existing studies that meet requirements. Staff will also

be available to assist owners during implementation when

applying for extensions.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: The Board

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

discussion also highlighted a need to regularly report

back on technology advancement. Zero-emission technology

is advancing rapidly, but it remains unclear how soon it

will be technically and economically viable for the wide

variety of harbor craft to operate in this state.

Staff proposed a technology review to be

completed every two years beginning in 2024, which would

include a newly formed technical working group, including

sportfishing and other industries to coordinate on

demonstrating zero-emission operations. This review would

cover the advancement of zero-emission technologies and

infrastructure, as well as the advancement and commercial

availability of Tier 4 plus DPF technology.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: The last

area the Board directed staff to evaluate was a

zero-emission contingency measure, if zero-emission

technology becomes feasible and available for harbor

craft. Staff is proposing to explore a contingency

measure for non-attainment areas, if zero-emission

technology advances in the marine sector.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: A draft

environmental analysis, or EA, was completed for the

proposed amendments that was released in September. Staff

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

determined that implementation of the proposed amendments

may have potentially significant indirect impacts to some

resource areas. However, these impacts are mainly due to

short-term construction-related activities.

The Draft EA was released for a comment period of

at least 45 days, which ended on November 15th, 2021.

Staff prepared a final Environmental Analysis and written

response to all comments received on the Draft EA and

posted them on our website earlier this month.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: With that,

staff would like to remind the Board of the health

benefits and cost effectiveness of the proposed

amendments. From 2023 to 2038, the amendments would save

an estimated 531 lives and result in hundreds of avoided

trips to a hospital for breathing related emergencies.

Furthermore, the benefits outweigh the cost of the

amendments by $3 billion, which is by a factor of two.

Due to emission standards for marine engines

lagging behind other sectors, they remain one of the

highest contributing emission sources at ports. It is

imperative that the marine sector reduces its emission

contribution and prioritizes near-term reductions.

This regulation is highly cost effective and

ensures that industry invests in clean air compliant

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

technologies that achieve substantial emission reductions

and public health benefits.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: Staff's

recommendation is to approve the written responses to

environmental comments, certify the Final EA, and make the

required CEQA findings and Statement of Overriding

Considerations.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: Additional

elements of the proposed resolution include language to

continue facilitating incentive opportunities and

streamline compliance extensions, as well as establish a

technical working group, including members of sportfishing

and other industries to advance and collaborate on

deployment of zero-emission technology and reported

findings in a biennial technology review.

The resolution also includes language to direct

staff to conduct a mid-term review by 2028 on the

requirements for the sportfishing fleet and return to the

Board. The Board would consider the findings of the

review and could direct staff to begin the process of

adjusting regulatory requirements.

And finally, the resolution proposes language to

explore a zero-emission contingency measure for extreme

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

non-attainment areas.

--o0o--

TTD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HOUCHIN: We further

recommend that the Board votes to adopt the proposed

amendments with recommended 15-day changes.

After releasing proposed change for a 15-day

period, staff will finalize the rulemaking package, which

includes responding to public comments in the Final

Statement of Reasons and the package will be submitted to

the Office of Administrative Law.

Thank you for your time.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you.

Before we move to public comment on this item, I

wanted to call on our former colleague who worked very

hard on this regulation, Supervisor Nathan Fletcher wanted

to say a few words.

SAN DIEGO SUPERVISOR FLETCHER: Thank you. Thank

you, Chair. It is -- IT IS wonderful to see you all. I

miss you all. I thoroughly enjoyed and loved and

appreciated my time on CARB and thrilled to see my

colleagues, Supervisor Nora Vargas who will do a much

better job than I could have ever done joining your Board

and doing wonderful.

But I just want to commend the CARB staff around

issues of the passenger sportfishing fleet and some of the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

changes that have come about, along with a number of Board

members. I know I've spoken to many of you about this

issue, and many of you were engaged. And I really want to

commend Richard and team coming down, being on the ground,

seeing the circumstances, and making reasonable

accommodations that will achieve our environmental goals

and our clean air goals, but will do it in a way that is

real, and is sustainable, and that this really and

important industry can accommodate and move forward with.

So just in full support of what you all are doing

and really just want to commend everyone. These issues

are difficult and hard, and we know that we have to clean

up our environment. We know we have to clean up the air

and we know we have to do it in a responsible way that

takes into account some of the unique circumstances that

industry has faced.

And so just in full support of these amendments,

and again want to thank everyone for all of the hard work,

and listening, and engagement that went on. And I think

as a former Air Resources Board member, I'm very proud of

this regulation in total and the direction it's headed.

I'm particularly proud of how this industry was treated.

So thank you very, very much Chair Randolph and thank you

to all of you for the work you continue to do.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: All right. Thank you Supervisor

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

Fletcher.

Okay. We will now hear from the public who

raised their hand to speak on this item. We have at least

50 speakers lined up to speak. And as this is the second

hearing on this regulation package, our time to speak will

be two minutes. So, Clerk, could you please call the

commenters and set a time of two minutes per commenter.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Yes. Thank you, chair.

Our first three speakers will be Ken Franke, Jaime

Diamond, and Sam Wilson. Just a reminder to everyone that

with the number of hands that are up in the queue, if you

lower your hand and then reraise your hand, it will put

you to the bottom. So please just continue to keep your

hand raised until I call on you.

And if you are going to be giving your comment in

Spanish, please plan on speaking slowly and pausing after

each sentence. And we will have an interpreter that will

assist you for consecutive translation.

So, Ken, you may unmute and begin.

KEN FRANKE: Good morning, Chair Randolph and

members of the Board. I'm Captain Ken Franke, President

of the Sportfishing Association of California. The SAC

membership comprises a majority of the Southern California

Coast Guard inspected passenger fishing vessel fleet. We

in the CPFV community appreciate all of your comments at

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

the November Board meeting, and recognizing the

consequential impacts to families of the draft rule. We

also appreciate Mr. Corey and the executive leadership

team touring our vessels and hearing directly from our

family owners at how they will be impacted.

I also want to thank former Member Nathan

Fletcher for helping to take his knowledge of our fleet

and CARB's charge emission[SIC] to facilitate a

conversation and understanding between the fleet and the

professional team at CARB. The proposed resolution

recognizes the contributions of the fleet to continuously

upgrade to lower emissions engines, imposes an aggressive

schedule for the balance of the fleet to use best

available technology, and sets definitive benchmarks for

continuous development of new technologies to encourage

engine of manufacturers to meet the future needs of our

fleet.

This won't be easy and is in -- and is dependent

on support from you as Board members the Legislature to

access the resources necessary to meet this aggressive

schedule and future innovation. Critical to this also is

the fleet's cooperation with CARB to conduct technology

review. And you have our commitment to maintain that

cooperative effort.

SAC and GGFA have discussed with staff that we

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

want to ensure that the technology review is

comprehensive, so that we can identify emissions and

reduction opportunities, and provide an economically

technical -- technologically feasible path to continuously

lower emissions and eventually meet the state's long-term

zero-emissions goals. This would include, but not limited

to: updated emissions data and modeling; certification of

engines in horsepower class; space constraints on vessels;

safety of technologies, including stability and heat

concerns; advanced hybrid and zero-emissions retrofit

development status; dockside infrastructure; and finally

monetary and non-monetary impacts to ocean education and

resource protection and conservation.

On behalf of the SAC Board of Directors, we are

in support of the draft resolution and staff presentation

on 15-day changes for commercial passenger fishing

vessels. Again, this is not giving the fleet a pass. It

is recognizing the fleet's early actions in environmental

stewardship, in setting and aggressive schedule for

continuous improvement. I'd like to finally also comment

that we've been in discussions with CARB staff regarding

certain ecotourism vessels --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

KEN FRANKE: -- that are not required to purchase

CPFV licenses. SAC and GGFA are committed to working with

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

their members to meet the near-term goals working with

CARB staff to identify --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes your time.

KEN FRANKE: Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Our next speaker is Jaime Diamond. Jamie, you

may unmute and begin.

JAIME DIAMOND: Good morning, Chair Randolph and

members of the Board. I am Jaime Diamond, owner of

Stardust Sportfishing in Santa Barbara. As a women in

this industry, I worked hard to build my family business.

Everything we have is on the line, including the jobs of

all of our employees. Maintaining our family business

through this time, and after having just survived COVID

shutdowns, has been frightening experience. That said, I,

along with other family boat owners were relieved when we

heard of the extension path proposed in the resolution.

Having the CARB staff meet with us and talk about

what could be done to reduce emissions without removing

out boats from service was important and much appreciated.

I know there's much to be done to help fellow owners meet

the aggressive timeline and I look forward to -- and look

towards future emissions reductions.

I'm on the Board of Directors of SAC and have

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

been involved through much of the process, and I'm

committed to assisting all of my fellow owners comply and

to work with CARB on future reductions. I also know the

men and women on our board and all of the captains and

crew are strong advocates of environmental protection.

They will be strong allies going forward to continue to

upgrade machinery to better models.

We are all in support of your efforts here today.

A positive outcome will save so many jobs and the ocean

access for so many people in our communities that do not

have the money to buy their own boats. Our kids programs,

marine labs for students, the veterans fishing programs

all will be saved with an approval of this resolution.

Looking to the future, our fleet will be right

there to help work with CARB to communicate, research, and

continue to upgrade engines. I look forward to your

approval of the resolution.

My three kids ages 15, 12, and 4, who hope to

take over our family business some day, thank you, and

look forward to your approval of the resolution.

Thank you. Have a great day

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Our next speaker will be Sam Wilson. After Sam

will be David Reynolds, Richard Smith, and then Ameen

Khan.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

Sam, you may unmute and begin.

SAM WILSON: Hi. Good morning, everybody. My

name is Sam Wilson. I'm a Senior Vehicles Analyst with

the Union of Concerned Scientists. Thanks so much for the

opportunity to comment today.

UCS appreciates the time and hard work put into

this proposal and we support CARB's efforts to reduce

emissions from commercial harbor craft. We urge the Board

to adopt this proposal today.

Emissions from harbor craft are currently one of

the primary cancer risks for Californians living closer to

ports. The proposed rule would provide a nearly 90

percent reduction in diesel particulate emissions and an

over 50 percent reduction in nitrogen oxide emissions from

the commercial harbor craft in our state. This will

reduce cancer risks and other negative health outcomes for

millions of Californians resulting in hundreds of fewer

premature deaths, hospital visits, and respiratory

illnesses, and also billions of dollars in related health

savings.

This is particularly impactful for those

communities living close to ports, which already bear

disproportionate exposure to cumulative air toxins.

Zero-emissions technologies are ready and available today

and UCS suggests that CARB continue to consider and expand

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

incentives in funding for small businesses that operate

vessels to transition quickly and equitably to a clean

transportation future.

California has a very rich history of adopting

effective regulations that spur innovation while reducing

toxic air pollution. We encourage the Board to continue

this history by adopting a strong public health focused

regulation today to further expand existing zero-emissions

vehicles technologies -- or vessels technology, excuse me,

affecting a more equitable access to clean and healthy

air, and significantly reducing exposure to cancer causing

air pollution for millions of Californians.

Thanks again for your hard work on this proposal.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

David Reynolds, you may unmute and begin.

(Conversation in the background.)

DAVID REYNOLDS: Thank you for this

opportunity --

(Conversation the background.)

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: David.

DAVID REYNOLDS: Thank you for this

opportunity --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Just a reminder to Board

members. We'll start your clock over. Sorry, David.

DAVID REYNOLDS: No problem.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Just a reminder to

everyone to continue to stay on mute.

And David, you may go ahead and begin.

DAVID REYNOLDS: Thank you for this opportunity.

My name is Davie Reynolds and I work at PTL

Marine. PTL marine operates and services the major ports

in California, including San Diego, LA/Long Beach, Port

Hueneme, and the Bay Area markets. We are an industrial

distribution and services provider with an emphasis on

fuels, lubricants, chemicals and last mile logistics. We

employ approximately 60 California residents and our

organization has been operating in California since 1956.

The maritime industry understands and appreciates

the long term viability of renewable diesel as a drop-in

fuel to be used instead of convent -- conventional

distillates. Current production capabilities require a

great majority of the renewable diesel fuel utilized in

the State of California to be imported primarily from the

Gulf Coast or Asian markets.

Current production capacity of renewable diesel

in the United States is around 600 million gallons per

year with only five plants producing the product. On the

positive side, production is expected to scale up as there

are at least six new plants in progress that will add an

additional two billion gallons per year of production

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

capacity by 2024.

The downside is that even with this incremental

production, this still only represents a very small

portion of the overall United States refinery capacity.

There are two California refineries, one in

Martinez, and the other in the Bay Area that are being

converted to renewable diesel production. These

conversions will not be completed until 2023 and 2024 best

case scenario. Until these conversions are completed,

product availability and reliability will remain at risk.

When supply is tight, there's an additional cost passed on

to consumers, all consumers, not just those maritime

industry operators. We request that you extend the

renewable diesel fuel requirement for California harbor

crafts until January 1st --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

DAVID REYNOLDS: -- 2024.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes you time.

DAVID REYNOLDS: Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Our next speaker is

Richard Smith. Richard, you may unmute and begin.

RICHARD SMITH: Good morning. My name is Richard

Smith and I am commenting on behalf of Westar Marine

Services. Westar is women-owned tugboat and water taxi

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

company based in San Francisco that has been in existence

since 1976. Westar operates 10 small tugboats and five

water taxis, and ploys about 50 women and men, many of

whom are represented by the Masters, Mates & Pilots Union.

Westar's market niche is marine construction support,

keeping the maritime infrastructure of peers, docks,

bridges, et cetera, maintained and working.

Westar has invested millions of its own dollars

plus Carl Moyer funds over the past 20 years upgrading the

engines on its vessels to reduce emissions. The company's

investments demonstrate its ongoing environmental

commitment. The proposed regulations will directly impact

Westar and threaten the liability of the company.

The regulations call for the installation of

engines and equipment that do not exist and physically

could not be installed in the small vessels that Westar

operates.

Loss of a company such as Westar will directly

impacts the maritime supply chain issues for the State.

Westar endorses the comments that will be made by the

American Waterways Operators, and Westar urges the Board

to vote no on this item and to direct staff to work with

the maritime industry to develop regulations that are

feasible.

Thank you.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Our next speaker will be Ameen Khan. After Ameen

will be Christine Batikian, Jacqueline Moore, and Jim

Holden.

Ameen, you may unmute and begin.

AMEEN KHAN: Good morning, Chair Randolph and

Board members. My name is Ameen Khan and I am the

Regulatory Affairs Advocate for California Environmental

Voters, formerly the California League of Conservation

Voters.

We thank the Board members and CARB staff for all

your hard work and diligence in this issue. We are

calling in support and to urge CARB to pass the strongest

possible Commercial Harbor Craft Rule today. Harbor craft

is one of the top resources of cancer risk around the

ports of Los Angeles, Long Beach, and Oakland. We have

the busiest ports in the nation. The communities closest

to those ports have a 900 chance in 1 million developing

cancer from the harbor craft emissions alone. This is 90

times above levels what EPA deems safe. This rule will

save more than 300 -- 530 California lives and protect 9.7

million Californians from elevated levels of air

pollution.

The technology exists today for zero-emission

boats and ships. No industry should be given a free pass

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

ways at the price of our frontline communities and the

environment. The time is now to electrify everything.

California's Harbor Craft Rule is an essential

step towards addressing the harms of fossil fuel shipping

and extend California's zero-emission transportation deep

into the seas.

On behalf of California Environmental Voters, I

urge you to pass the strongest possible version of the

Commercial Harbor Craft Rule today.

Thank you for consideration of my comments

--o0o--

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. Christine

Batikian, you may unmute and begin.

CHRISTINE BATIKIAN: Christine Batikian

representing the Port of Los Angeles. The Port of Los

Angeles submitted written comments on the draft rule in a

joint letter with the Port of Long Beach in November 2021.

Our comments provided in that letter remain relevant and

important, but we'll focus our verbal comments today on

funding availability for harbor craft.

We have concerns with the funding programs CARB

staff presented during the January meeting. Carl Moyer

funding has been pointed as a main source of funding.

However, Carl Moyer funding prioritization is currently

set aside by the air districts. Historically, air

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

districts have provided limited, or in the case of some

air districts, no funding to harbor craft through Carl

Moyer.

Additionally, harbor craft that must meet

regulations prior to 2025 will be ineligible for Carl

Moyer funding as they will not meet the useful life

requirements. Harbor craft that do not meet the useful

life requirement may also not meet current cost

effectiveness. Many vessels that currently have Tier 2 or

3 engines will not be able to accommodate a Tier 4 engine

in their existing vessel and will need to replaced.

Unfortunately, replacing a Tier 2 or 3 engine with Tier 4

will not meet current Carl Moyer cost effectiveness.

We request that CARB staff set aside funding for

the air districts specifically for harbor craft in Carl

Moyer, adjust cost effectiveness regulation -- cost

effectiveness calculations to allow for harbor craft

replacements, and increase the funding amount overall.

Additionally, CORE -- another program presented was CORE.

CORE requires that the equipment must be verified and

listed and eligible for participants to get funding.

There is currently no listed harbor craft equipment or

shore power infrastructure on the list of eligible

equipment. Therefore, no CORE funding can be used at this

time.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

EPA's DERA funding was named as a funding source.

DERA is a competitive grant against projects throughout

the Entire EPA Region 9, which is four states. The

funding availability is relatively small for DERA

projects. We thank you for all the hard work, but the

funding is not there to meet the timeline that CARB has

set. CARB must set aside funding specifically for harbor

craft or adjust existing funding programs in order for

them to be --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

CHRISTINE BATIKIAN: -- of any use to harbor

craft owners and operators.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes your time.

Jacqueline Moore, you unmute and begin.

JACQUELINE MOORE: Hi. Good morning. My name is

Jacqueline Moore and I'm from the Pacific Merchant

Shipping Association and our members have appreciated the

opportunity to work with CARB staff on the development of

the amendments over the past few years. I offer three

outstanding comments. And I will leave the technical

comments to the many hard working harbor craft operators

participating in this meeting today.

One strategy in various recent regulations and

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

amendment CARB is adopting are holding owners and

operators jointly responsible are not being obligated to a

specific party at all. CARB staff have said to let the

industry work it out, but unfortunately, that's not how

business works. We must rely on formal contracts and

agreements.

Seaports have established procedures and

contractual obligations. For the zero-emission

infrastructure a vital component of this regulation, it

will certainly cause confusion and likely conflict

regarding who will be responsible for purchasing and

maintaining infrastructure, and who even owns it in the

end.

I would also like to highlight that, yes, there

are some funding programs available. However, they are

nowhere near offering the multi-millions of dollars

required for every vessel. I highly support the comments

Ms. Batikian from Port of LA just shared on the funding

complications. I respectfully urge CARB and the law

makers to propose and support such additional

appropriations within the budget.

As for my main comment, the Clean Air Act

requires that California obtain a waiver from EPA prior to

enforcing any off-road emissions standard. This Harbor

Craft Rule is just that. It is not an in-use standard.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

The emissions standard requirement and opacity limit

places a numerical limit on emissions that go beyond

approved standard limitations. EPA must provide a waiver

to legally enforce this. This issue has already been

litigated with CARB. And thus, we respectfully urge CARB

to declare your intention to obtain a waiver prior to

implementation of the amendments.

And that concludes my comments. Again, I am

Jacqueline Moore of PMSA and thank you for allowing me the

time to speak today.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Our next speaker will be Jim Holden. After Jim

will be Peter Schrappen, Regina Hsu, and Ernie Prieto.

Jim, you my unmute and begin.

JIM HOLDEN: Well, good morning. My name is Jim

Holden I'm the founder of Fish for Life, which is a

13-year program that takes special needs children and

their families ocean fishing, unlike any program of its

kind. Our home court is Dana Point. We've also had trips

from Long Beach, San Diego, and we'll be expanding to

Northern California this fall and the Bay Area.

We have a hundred people per voyage that includes

30 special needs kids, a variety of condition, autistic

kids, down kids, cerebral palsy, they're all welcome, 30

chaperones, and 40 volunteers that involve non-special

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

needs kids, marine biologists, wounded warriors, firemen,

EMTs. We have -- it's loaded with entertainment. The

trips begin with red art -- red carpet introductions down

the gangway to introduce our guests as they board the

boat, a fire boat escort, kites we fly as we're heading to

the fishing grounds, educate them, you know, about whales,

dolphins, the difference between seals, sea lions, et

cetera. We even surprise them with a mermaid out in the

ocean while we're under dock -- or anchor.

As you can imagine, you know, the trips a feature

rich, but therapeutic benefits are tremendous for our

honored guests, the chaperones and all the volunteers.

want to take this time to thank CARB for your compassion

and substantive changes to the harbor craft engine

regulation. The demands for our program is overwhelming

and this will allow Fish for Life to pursue our expansion

plans to serve more families with special needs children.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Peter Schrappen, you may unmute and begin.

PETER SCHRAPPEN: Thank you. My name is Peter

Schrappen, Vice President for the American Waterways

Operators, which represents the tugboats, towboats, and

barges. California is a critical part of our trade

association. The Golden State ranks fourth among all

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

states in maritime jobs and contributes a whopping $12.2

billion annually to California's economy. If I could, I'd

like to brag about our strong environmental record.

Our members represent the greenest, and most fuel

efficient transportation system. Goods moved by tugs and

barges mean 43 percent less greenhouse gases than rail

moved freight and about 1,000 percent less than moving the

same freight by semis. We're not resting on our

environmental bonafides however. We are continually

pushing the envelope as is the entire industry to get to

zero emissions.

Unfortunately, we find ourselves at an impasse

with this draft rule. These regulations are economically

infeasible with dangerous modifications based on

technology that has not been invented. I'm talking about

DPFs. Unlike trucks, boats can't pull to the side of the

road and call 911 and wait for a fire truck. They're at

see and if they catch fire, it places their crew and the

ships they escort at risk.

Tugs, towboats, and barges are part of the

nation's critical infrastructure and I don't want to bury

the lead. This rule will disrupt and already supply --

strained supply chain and devastate a critically important

part of California's infrastructure, the workhorses of the

working waterfront that supply Californians with their

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

groceries and fuel.

If you think times are tough now with

(inaudible), in the market, wait until we all feel the

pain that this rule will bring.

We have made our positions clear with our comment

letters. We stand ready to work with CARB, but let's not

jeopardize the lives of mariners. Let's pick better path.

One that gets to zero emissions in a safe manner, one that

allows DPFs a chance to get approved by the Coast Guard

with a six-year grace period, one that exempts non-harbor

craft like ocean-going tugs and ATBs because of the

already in place At Berth Regulation where they are better

suited, and let's seize the moment to get outdated

technology out of the environment before we leave to

require an unproven and dangerous technology.

Thank you for your time.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Regina Hsu, you may unmute and begin.

REGINA HSU: Good morning Chair Randolph and

members of the Board. My name is Regina Hsu and I'm an

attorney with Earthjustice. Thank you for the opportunity

to comment today.

We urge CARB to adopt the Commercial Harbor Craft

rule, the culmination of years of work by staff. By

adopting this rule, CARB will fulfill a promise to

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

front-line communities to clean up harbor craft, which

staff identified as a growing source of diesel pollution

four years ago.

Since then, our portside communities have been

suffering from an onslaught of toxic pollution due to

increased activity at the ports. This growth at our ports

means that we need to act now to clean up these various

sources of port pollution.

The harbor craft rule is an opportunity for CARB

to pass a critical public health measure that will save

over 500 lives and bring much needed relief to our port

communities. We appreciate staff's hard work an glad to

see the first zero-emission requirements for harbor craft

in this rule. We support the biennial technology review

as well. Zero-emissions technology for harbor craft is

developing quickly and these frequent technology reviews

will be important to ensuring that we are achieving all of

the emission reductions we can from this sector.

We also support the commitment to pursue a

contingency measure. Additional zero-emission

requirements for harbor craft will be critical for

non-attainment areas, such as the South Coast and San

Joaquin Valley.

Again, we'd like to thank staff for their hard

work and urge CARB to stand with communities and adopt

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

this rule. Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Our next speaker will be Ernie Prieto. After

Ernie will be Jerry Desmond, Laura[SIC] Gularte, and David

McCloy.

Ernie, you may go ahead and begin.

ERNIE PRIETO: Good morning. My name is Ernie

Prieto, Captain of the Chubasco II in Oceanside,

California. The regulations that were considered at your

November hearing are not economically or structurally

feasible. We would be forced to build a new vessel at an

estimated cost of $5 million forcing me to triple the

price of one of our half-day trips, likely eliminating my

marine education and fishing outreach programs. There is

no way we could sustain current passenger loads at those

prices. No way we could stay in business.

In stark contrast, I can support the resolution

being considered today that proposes an alternative

compliance path for commercial passenger fishing vessels,

otherwise known as sportfishing boats. With its passage,

boat owners, like myself, will be set on a compliance path

that is tough, but manageable.

Once more, millions of Californians will be

assured affordable access to fishing. This is important

for all Californians, especially since there's been an

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

increase in fishing participation with significant growth

amongst families. The recreational boating and fishing

foundation recently reported that fishing participation

rates have increased to a 12-year high with notable growth

amongst non-traditional participants that are younger,

more urban, and more diverse with significant --

significant gains amongst women, African Americans,

Hispanics, and Latinos.

But I do not need a report to tell me this. My

passengers are diverse and multi-cultural, representative

of what makes California so special, a culture full of

smiles and excitement when they have hooked a fish or

experienced the ocean for the very first time.

With the adoption of the resolution, I can

continue to support my family, my family of employees, and

California's community of anglers.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Jerry Desmond.

JERRY DESMOND: Good morning, Chair and members.

This is Jerry Desmond on behalf of Recreational Boaters of

California, RBOC, a non-profit advocacy organization that

has pro -- been promoting and protecting the interests of

the State boaters for over 50 years. We were a signer on

the November 3rd comment letter to the Board on this

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

issue. And we appreciate and understand the achievements

that have been accomplished in terms of the proposed

regulation since that date, and we align ourselves with

the comments that Ken Franke and the Sportsfishing

Association of California, and the other sportfishing

folks that are testifying today. We appreciate the effort

to engage with our community.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. Lauren -- go

ahead.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: We going to close the queue for

public comment, so if you have not yet raised your hand or

dialed star nine, please do so now. And 10:10, the queue

will close.

Thank you very much.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. Lauren

Gularte, you may unmute and begin.

LAUREN GULARTE: Good morning, Chair Randolph and

commissioners. My name is Lauren Gularte representing the

Water Emergency Transportation Authority, which operates

San Francisco Bay Ferry Services. Thank you for the

opportunity to comment today.

WETA is supportive of the goal of the proposed

amendments and is committed to operating the cleanest

vessels possible. In partnership with CARB, WET -- WETA

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

staff have worked throughout the last year plus to develop

an alternative control of emissions plan that will shift

50 percent of our vessel fleet to zero emissions by 2035.

We appreciate the time and effort your staff has committed

to working with us and developing this plan and addressing

our concerns with previous versions of the proposed

amendments.

In advance of the November 19, 2021 hearing, we

submitted a letter outlining two remaining requests for

changes to the proposed amendments. First, we requested

CARB to clarify language which discussed language

regarding funding restrictions for an operator's ACE plan.

And we requested that CARB make changes to limit the use

of grant funds -- I'm sorry, to -- rather than limiting

the use of grant funds to implement an operator's ACE

Plan, we suggest that the restrictions on the use of grant

funds come directly from the granting agency.

Secondly, we requested CARB to address the

situation of an in-process vessel repower project that

will occur -- well, that will have an engine out of a

vessel on December 31st, 2022, which is the date that is

used to document the engine model year of the vessel and

therefore sets the compliance year for that vessel. We

will have a vessel in the shipyard at that time and

requesting the language to be included to address that

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

situation.

We hope that CARB's Commission will direct staff

to address these two remaining requests for changes to the

proposed amendments today. In addition, we also want to

urge CARB to act promptly in reviewing an operator's ACE

plan, once these regulations go into effect. We have a

lot of work to secure funding and expediting approval will

help position WETA to bring these projects closer to

reality. Thank you for the time.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Our next speaker will be David McCloy. After

David, will Donna Kalez, Shawn Bennett and Tim Ekstrom.

David, you may unmute and begin.

DAVID MCCLOY: Good morning. My name is David

McCloy. I'm with the San Francisco Bar Pilots. Thanks

for the opportunity to speak. My company owns and

operates 5 of the 10 pilot vessels in California.

We support the efforts of CARB to improve air

quality in California. The Bar Pilots, along with our

ratepayers, are currently building the first Tier 4

powered high-speed pilot vessel in the U.S. It will

replace our current Tier 2 vessel. Delivered in November

of this year, it will be ahead of the proposed compliance

date for that vessel.

The current regs now require emissions compliance

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

upon new construction of vessels or repowers, along --

similar to EPA U.S. EPA requirements. The new proposed

regulations will require the Bar Pilots to prematurely

replace our fleet by the end of 2025. That's only three

and a half years from now, at the cost of approximately

$50 million to us and our industry ratepayers.

The design and engineering requirements timeline,

along with the financial impact on such a short timeline

will create an unreasonable burden on the piloted

infrastructure. We embrace the concept and efforts to

improve air quality in our area and the State as well, but

we just need more time to renew our fleet and comply with

the regs. So our request is to have additional time for

our vessels to meet the requirements. The current

proposed regs don't allow much extensions for our

particular fleet.

Thanks for your time. That's it.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Donna Kalez, you may unmute and begin.

DONNA KALEZ: Thank you. Good morning, Chair

Randolph and members of the Board. My name is Donna Kalez

and I, along with my family, own and operate Dana Wharf

Sportfishing here in Dana Point.

As a fleet, we always have and will remain in

support of economically and technically feasible emission

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

reduction efforts. As noted in the January workshop, our

fleet has comprised about 80 percent of the marine

projects over the last number of years, giving our fleet a

significant jump on early implementation of lower emission

technologies.

Many owners have taken advantage of grant

programs to upgrade their vessels, two and even three

times, as lower emission engines were developed. The

grant funding has been critical to these improvements.

The inspected fleet stood at about 295 Tier 0 vessels in

1998, while the economics of the fleet has resulted in the

loss of about a third of those inspected vessels. Since

then, the grant programs have allowed 87 percent of the

remaining 193 full-time vessels to be upgraded to one of

the two latest tiers approved for our vessels, and over 41

percent were the latest available tiers as of February

1st, and more upgrades have taken place since then. All

around, this is a huge involuntary emission reduction

effort in partnership with the fleet, CARB, and our local

AQMDs that have offered marine grants.

We look forward to the approval of this

resolution and the 15-day comment period changes to

continue this important work and partnership. Your

support today and support of legislative funding will

allow the full-time commercial passenger fishing vessel

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

fleet to meet the aggressive timelines in the changes and

send --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

DONNA KALEZ: -- the signal to engine

manufacturers. Thank you so very much for your time.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes your time.

Our next speaker will be Shawn Bennett. And it

is now past 10:10 so the list to sign up is now closed.

Shawn, you may unmute and begin.

SHAWN BENNETT: Great. Thank you so much for the

time to speak here. My name is Shawn Bennett.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Shawn.

SHAWN BENNETT: Can I stop you there and ask that

you mute the device in the background.

SHAWN BENNETT: I'm not sure what that device is,

but how is that?

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: That sounds great. Thank

you.

SHAWN BENNETT: Does that work?

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: No, now there's feedback

again.

SHAWN BENNETT: I'm not sure.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: It sounds like it's off

now. Are you --

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

SHAWN BENNETT: Yeah, if I ty to talk.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Oh. So there's a --

SHAWN BENNETT: I'm not sure --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Is the audio coming

through somewhere else and it's picking it up. If you

have a headset or headphones and then I can maybe come

back to you.

SHAWN BENNETT: Yes, please. I'll try.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Okay. All right. Let's

go to Tim Ekstrom. Tim, you may unmute and begin.

Tim, are you there?

TIM EKSTROM: Okay. Can you hear me now?

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Yes, I can. Thank you

TIM EKSTROM: Good morning, Chair Randolph and

members of the Board. I am Captain Tim Ekstrom with the

sportfishing vessel Royal Star based in San Diego.

I am in support of the proposed extension path

and resolution for our sector. The overnight fleet in

California departs our harbors for trips from 1 through 16

days offshore. While the presence of offshore vessels

like Royal Star in California waters is far less than

coastal vessels, we share the desire for reduced

emissions.

Many boats in our fleet are already powered by

Tier 2 and tier 3 engines and more are transitioning now.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

Our fleet history of voluntarily upgrading machinery and

reducing emissions is well established. I am incredibly

appreciative that the CARB staff joined us in San Diego to

discuss a logical path for emissions reductions while

maintaining the viability of our fleet.

The owners, captains, and crews are a small

portion of the individuals who will be impacted by a

positive outcome today. Hundred of thousands of people

who visit our coastal communities will continue to enjoy

coastal and offshore voyages, learn about the ocean and

cherish the ability to sustainably harvest fresh seafood

for their families from value-based sportfishing voyages.

Hotels, restaurants, and numerous other support

businesses will remain in tact and thrive while our fleet

reduces emissions through machinery upgrades and

technology on a clear path towards an ultimate

zero-emissions goal. This is a shining example of what

productive collaboration can produce.

On behalf of my crew, our family, and the entire

fleet of commercial passenger fishing vessels, thank you

to CARB staff and you for your consideration of this

important resolution.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

All right. Shawn Bennett let's try again.

SHAWN BENNETT: Okay. How is that?

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: That's perfect.

SHAWN BENNETT: Okay. Great. Sorry about that.

Thanks for your time. I'm name is Shawn Bennett. I'm the

owner of Baydelta Maritime. We are a tugboat company that

runs tugs and boats in San Francisco Bay and LA/Long

Beach. And we employ about 40 people. We're a small

business.

And you know, our specific role in the tugboat

business is really running purpose-built tugs that are

meant to prevent oil spills just to put it bluntly.

They're very much designed specifically to the

requirements of the Oil Spill Prevention Act of 1990. And

that requires best achievable technology. We tether to

the back of tankers that come in and out of San Francisco

Bay and LA/Long Beach. And our job is to stop them if a

pilot, you know, requests the need for any sort of issues

with mechanical or, you know, navigational or anything to

the effect. And we've made a lot of progress doing that

over the years and I think water cleanup has been a really

big focus.

Now, one of the issues and concerns we have with

this regulation is it requires a lot of power and a lot of

stability in the design of our vessels to do that, you

know, carry out that duty. We do -- we turn basically

sideways to stop the tanker when we need to and there

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

hasn't been enough really looked into how this DPF

equipment will affect the stability of our vessels. I

know there's been some collaboration and a lot of

meetings, and -- but specifically to that concern, we need

some more time to look at that, because it will change the

stability of our vessels, and that is a critical part.

Also, it can affect the horsepower. And, you

know, obviously a lack of horsepower would change our

capabilities there. And so I think for us what we'd like

to see is really, you know, some time spent with the naval

architects, the engine manufacturers, and everybody, you

know, along with CARB to take a very close look at that

topic.

The other issue we have is shipyard capacity.

It's hard to even get enough time right now to get our

ship -- our tugs painted. I get really concerned by

this ability to get the work done.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes your time.

SHAWN BENNETT: Okay. Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Our next three speakers will be Barry McCooey,

Art Mead and Leela Rao.

Barry, we have your slides that you submitted in

advance, and so we will go ahead and pull that up. I will

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

run the timer and let you know, because you will not be

able to see it on the screen while your presentation is

up.

Go ahead and begin.

BARRY MCCOOEY: Thank you very much. I'm Barry

McCooey from M&H Engineering.

Next slide, please.

--o0o--

BARRY MCCOOEY: We have developed and designed a

set of marine engineered -- engines that are certified to

EU Stage 5 and U.S. Tier 4, and will also CARB's Tier 4

plus DPF regulations. Our design -- our engines are

designed to meet and exceed all present and future marine

emissions. We start with 55 to 317 kilowatts this year

being launched in Q3 and 350 to 680 kilowatts in Q3 next

year. Our engines are designed propulsion, generators, or

auxiliary applications, and are cooled as normal marine

engines would be.

Next slide, please.

--o0o--

BARRY MCCOOEY: Our engines, again we designed

the package to be as a replacement engine for all the Tier

2, Tier 3 engines out there being used today. They're

ideal for commercial passenger fishing vessels with wooden

and fiberglass construction or aluminium. We're aware of

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

these construction. We also have these constructions in

the UK and Europe. And this equipment will fit into it.

We understand weight, balance, trim is critical. Again,

our engines are designed to be direct replacements.

The layouts, configurations are exactly the same

as what you're used to, that 12 and 24 volt options. We

have front PTO options for hydraulics and generators --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thirty seconds remaining.

BARRY MCCOOEY: -- designed to operate at sea

safely without compromising vessel handling.

Next slide, please.

--o0o--

BARRY MCCOOEY: The aftertreatment can be

remotely fitted in void spaces, or on deck, or behind the

engines. All our engines are packaged and protected, so

there's no hot surfaces, no fire risks, things like that.

The size of the aftertreatment on the 9-liter is

equivalent to two 25-liter drums. We've also gotten

engines designed for hazardous area applications, the

petrochemical barges, and hazardous applications.

Next up.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes you time. We do have your slides. We have them

saved and received, and so they will be available. If you

submit them to the docket, we will also have them posted

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

electronically for others to see, but we do have your

slides and staff has them as well.

Art Mead, you may unmute and begin.

ART MEAD: Yeah. Thanks, Katie. Art Mead,

Crowley Maritime. Overall Crowley has almost no objection

to the proposed amendments to the Commercial Harbor Craft

Rule. However, there remains one material issue that must

be addressed. The proposed language includes a very

generalized definition of an articulated tug barge, known

as ATBs that includes ocean-going vessels.

Not all ATBs are the same and Crowley operates

several ocean-going vessel ATBs engaged in interstate

commerce along the United States west coast. These

vessels exceed 700 feet in length and transport in excess

of 120,000 barrels of bulk liquid energy. These vessels

are not harbor craft and spend only a small portion of

their operating hours in regulated California waters.

In fact, our OGV ATBs which do not separate are

longer than the U.S. Navy's Ticonderoga class guided

missile cruisers, hardly harbor craft. This is not a new

issue. With the passage of the At Berth Rule two years

ago, Crowley objected to exempting. OGV ATBs from that

rule. The resolution adopted by the Board at that time

directed staff to engage the ATB industry to determine the

best options for cost-effective emissions reductions that

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

recognize the unique nature of ATBs during the harbor

craft update.

In fact, the proposed harbor craft rule will

force Crowley's operations in California to cease by 2024.

The capacity reduction of two million barrels will be

replaced by less efficient foreign tankers, which are not

regulated as harbor craft, traveling across the globe,

increasing harmful air emissions with other unintended

harmful economic consequences to western states.

Crowley urges the Board to direct staff to

develop a pathway to acquire OGV ATBs to comply with shore

power requirements. Rather than drive Crowley's American

flag OGV ATB fleet out of the state, the CHC Regulation

should include more flexible and effective alternative

compliance pathways to achieve the emissions reductions

mandated. We look forward to continuing --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes your time.

ART MEAD: -- discussions with the Board and staff

on addressing this important issue.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Our next speaker will be

Leela Rao. After Leela will be Scott Merritt, Rick

Powers, and Wayne Kotow.

Leela, you may unmute and begin.

LEELA RAO: Thank you, Chair Randolph and members

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

of the Board for the opportunity to make comments on the

proposed amendments to the commercial harbor craft

regulation. My name is Leela Rao and I'm with the Port of

Long Beach.

The Port supports the intent of this regulation,

substantial emission reductions from harbor craft, and

appreciates the efforts by CARB staff to engage

stakeholders throughout this rulemaking process. Together

with the Port of Los Angeles, the Port of Long Beach has

met with staff numerous times and submitted several

comment letters.

However, the issues from our most recent comment

letter remain unaddressed and staff propose 15-day

changes. Those comments still apply, but I'll focus my

comments today on the most significant issue for

compliance with the proposed amendments, the lack of

sufficient incentive funding for replacement of harbor

craft used at ports.

Although CARB staff continues to highlight

several funding programs as being available for harbor

craft projects, the reality is that these programs aren't

accessible to harbor craft operators. A prime example is

the Carl Moyer Program. While significant dollars are

allocated to Carl Moyer each year, the districts don't

often prioritize harbor craft. In addition, meeting the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

cost effectiveness -- effectiveness requirements will be

very difficult for vessels requiring new builds, which

includes many tugboats due to their individualized and

compact designs.

Vessels required to be replaced or upgraded by

2025 will also be completely ineligible for Moyer funding

due to the cost-effectiveness requirements. DW funding is

similarly difficult to access, because it only

incentivizes retrofits instead of new builds and the

incentives are far too low. The ports are committed to

reducing emissions from harbor craft as evidenced by our

harbor craft technology advancement projects underway.

However, harbor craft continues to be one of the

most challenging sources of emission, in large part,

because many vessels need to be replaced, not retrofitted,

to provide enough space on board for emission control

technology, and the cost for the cleanest vessel

technologies is upward of $20 million per vessel.

We respectfully ask the Board to direct staff to

ensure sufficient dedicated harbor craft funding sources

to aid in compliance with these proposed amendments.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next will be Scott Merritt. Scott, you may

unmute and begin.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

SCOTT MERRITT: Thank you. My name is Scott

Merritt. I've spent my entire 39-year professional career

serving the tug and barge industry. I've served as COO of

Foss Maritime, Chairman of the Board of AWO, Vice Chair of

the Harbor Safety Committee of San Francisco Bay. I've

spent the last three years supporting the towing industry

and attempting to understand the proposed rules and to

provide meaningful input to CARB staff in support of a

responsible regulation.

Unfortunately, the rule as written will be

difficult, if not impossible, to comply with, challenging

to administer and enforce, and disruptive to the supply

chain, lead to the loss of living wage jobs, and most

importantly be counterproductive to the goal of achieving

zero emission.

Because I understand my time is limited, I'm

going to start with an ask, one we've made to staff and

Board members, and follow with supporting notes as time

allows. They are all included in my written comments.

We ask that you allow low-emission, Tier 3 and 4,

engines to operate without modification for their useful

life of up to 25 years from the engine model year. When

adjusting for life expectancy of tugs versus trucks, this

is consistent with CARB regulations governing Class 8

trucks.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

We propose an exchange when time is up that

vessel owners will retire those vessels and replace them

with zero-emission vessels or provide a penalty that would

fund zero-emission tug projects to ensure we made that

transition. This would all guarantee a steady

transformation from diesel to zero emissions starting in

the early 2030s and completing by the mid-2040s. Short of

this, we'd ask for the same consideration given the

commercial passenger fishing vessels by including us in

the Resolution 22-6 pathway.

We -- the justifications I'm going to run out of

time to go into, but I'd ask you to read our comments and

read the comments of AWO. And I thank you for your time.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Rick Powers, you may unmute and begin.

RICK POWERS: Thank you, Chair Randolph and

members of the Board. I am Captain Rick Powers, President

of the Golden Gate Fishermen's Association. Our

association membership comprises the majority of the

Northern California Coast Guard inspected passenger

fishing vessels. Thank you for your comments at the

November Board meeting and your appreciation for the

impact and consequences of the rule on the lives of our

members.

Our organization is in support of the draft Board

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

Resolution as it pertains to our sector. We share

everyone's desire for clean air and emissions reductions.

The fleet has been upgrading machinery for years as new

technology is available, and over 40 percent of the fleet

is using the best available technology that is safe to use

on our vessels. However, many in our fleet have not

previously been eligible for grant funding.

Critical to the solution that is now presented is

that there is an appropriate compliance path for us to

work with the CARB Board and the Legislature to expedite

lowering emissions for the fleet coast wide. This funding

support is critical, especially for our operators out of

the smaller ports that haven't had grant opportunities in

the past. We are fishermen, educators, and environmental

stewards. We care tremendously about the long-term

sustainability of our air and ocean resources. Working

together on a coast-wide solution provides our fishing

culture a future and will help to maintain our coastal

communities dependent on tourism.

The draft resolution will also ensure that while

we continue to work towards zero-emissions goals, we can

still operate and provide the valuable service of ocean

access to the regional community. This is especially

important for our marine education trips and sportfishing

services to those that economic -- economically are unable

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

to afford their own boat.

We look forward to working with the CARB staff in

the future to discuss next steps. Please approve the

changes related to CPFVs.

Thank you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you. Our next speaker

will be Wayne Kotow. After Rain -- Wayne will be Steven

Brink, Kristin Joseph, and then Jim Luttjohann. Wayne,

you may unmute and begin.

WAYNE KOTOW: Good morning, Chair Randolph and

members of the Board. I'm Wayne Kotow, Executive Director

for Coastal Conservation Association of California. CCA

Cal represents the recreational angling community

throughout the state. Ocean access is paramount in the

efforts of our organization. We have worked for years

with SAC, Captain Rollo's Kids at Sea, CDF, and many other

organizations to provide opportunities to take kids for

their first fishing trip.

Several hundred thousand kids have been

positively impacted over the years by this effort. We are

also here to advocate and protect our resources,

environment, habitat, and the people who enjoy them. The

passenger sport fishing fleet is the gateway for so many

of our community to the ocean. Enjoyment, healthy

environment, and food for the table are all positive

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

impacts -- (clears throat) -- excuse me -- of the gateway.

I'm here today to share our support for the

resolution and compliance path presented to the commercial

passenger fishing vessels. It just makes sense. It

results in continued emissions reductions that still meet

our shared goals. It also maintains our critical ocean

access that we now know is so viable -- valuable since

coming out of our COVID lockdowns.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Steven Brink, you may unmute and begin.

Steven, are you there?

Okay. It doesn't look like you have unmuted, so

I will come back to you.

Kristin Joseph, you may unmute and begin.

KRISTIN JOSEPH: Good morning. My name is

Kristin Joseph and I represent R.E. State Engineering.

R.E. State is a small family-owned heavy marine

construction company headquartered in San Diego.

The proposed CHC amendments impact every single

piece of marine equipment we own. So needless to say,

we've been an engaged partner in the review process.

We've provided detailed comments to staff throughout the

process as well as to the Board in November, but we still

feel like our concerns have not been adequately addressed.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

They include allowing reasonable time for upgrades and

extensions, providing funding for upgrades, and providing

flexibility and grant application requirements. We'd like

to see incentive-based compliance, so something like the

DOORS Program, and we'd like a small business phasing plan

included that allows for more time for small businesses.

In addition to the items that we just listed,

we'd like to request that CARB staff employ a maritime

expert that knows our vessels and their capabilities and

can serve as a liaison between stakeholders and CARB staff

to assist with the implementation of this new rule.

We would encourage the Board not to improve the

proposed regulations today. Although, we do recognize

that in the proposed resolution before you today, that

there is reso -- language that would allow staff to keep

working with stakeholders. If this item is approved

today, we would hope that the items I identified can be

work through before final adoption.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Steven Brink, let's try one more time. Can you

unmute and begin. It looks like you were unmuted briefly

and now you're muted again.

STEVEN BRINK: There we go.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: There we go.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

STEVEN BRINK: I think we can hear me now.

Thank you very much.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Yes, we can.

STEVEN BRINK: Thank you. So good morning, Chair

Randolph and Board members. I'm Steve Brink, California

Forestry Association, Vice President, Public Resources.

Today, I'm representing forest products shipments from the

port at Humboldt Bay on the north coast. And that's the

extent of my comments will be focused on that low-use

port.

We provided written comments back in November.

And they were catalogued and received and there's been no

written response that I can find about our comments, and

so that's why I'm here today verbally.

So the port at Humboldt Bay. Two inventoried

towing vessels, that's one percent of the statewide total,

one percent. CARB used the Port Emissions Inventory Data

from Port of Angeles, Port of Long Beach, Port of Oakland.

CARB did not use any data from the Port of Humboldt Bay,

which is not surprising, because the airshed at Humboldt

Bay is in attainment, and always has been, and will

continue to be in attainment for the foreseeable future.

With one percent of the towing vessels air

quality in attainment, only five to six freighters a year

at that port, a low-use port, I don't see any data that

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

would indicate that the Port of Humboldt Bay should be

administered the same as the Port of Long Beach or Los

Angeles, or any other major California port.

Humboldt Bay should be exempt from the commercial

harbor craft rule, period. Thank you for the opportunity

to comment.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next will be Jim Luttjohann. After Jim will be

Max Cohen, Will Roberts, and Elliot Gonzales.

Jim, you may unmute and begin.

JIM LUTTJOHANN: Good morning. I'm the President

and CEO of Love Catalina Island, Catalina Island's tourism

authority, which encompasses the local chamber of

commerce, visitors bureau, and film office. I'm also a

life-long asthmatic, so I see all sides of the issue at

hand.

Love Catalina has over 250 businesses as members

working and residing on Catalina Island that are a hundred

percent dependent on visitors at tourism drives our local

economy. Those businesses and visitors need reliable and

affordable daily transportation to and from Catalina

Island. In a typical year, Catalina Island welcomes about

one million visitors, the majority of which traveled via

passenger ferry.

On behalf of Love Catalina and more than 1,000

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

petition signatories, who reside, work, and travel to and

from Catalina Island, all of which have been submitted --

sorry, lost my place there -- all of which have been

submitted as written testimony will remain deeply

concerned over CARB's proposed Harbor Craft Rules. The

lack of certainty of dedicated funding for commercial

ferries like Catalina Channel Express, and other passenger

ferries, to comply with the new regulatory mandates being

proposed is very troubling.

Without a new dedicated funding stream, Catalina

Express and other passenger ferries will not be able to

reach compliance and it's difficult to see how this

regulatory program will succeed without ferries like

Catalina Express as part of the solution.

Without State funding to make this transition

feasible, the current proposed regulations place an

impossible financial burden on Catalina Express and the

other ferry services as privately operated utilities

regulated by the CPUC. The negative consequences of these

new, swift, and costly regulations, without sufficient

funding for the transition to new vessels equipped with

Tier 4 engines, will negatively impact transportation,

safety efficiency, reliability --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

JIM LUTTJOHANN: -- and affordability.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes your time.

JIM LUTTJOHANN: Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Next will be Max Cohen.

You may unmute and begin.

MAX COHEN: Hi. My name is Max Cohen. I'm a Cal

Maritime grad and I'm a Policy Analyst here at Curtin

Maritime. Curtin Maritime is a tug and barge operator

located in Long Beach, California. We operate primarily

in the marine construction sector and will be bringing

online the largest clamshell dredge on the west coast,

which is also a Tier 4 hybrid.

I would first like to thank CARB Board members

for engaging with us, specifically Vice Chair Sandra Berg.

I would also like to personally thank CARB staff Nick

Taylor for answering my nuanced questions regarding this

rule.

I would like to use my time to put on record some

of the concerns we have discussed and would like to work

with staff on the Board to continue to address.

First, we are concerned that the commercial

harbor craft compliance dates paired with the Carl Moyer

Program funding surplus regs requirements will not allow

vessel operators to get even half the lifetime out of

their engines, if they want to take advantage of these

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

funds. All 2009 engines and prior will already be

disqualified from Carl Moyer Program due to its surplus

requirements. The 2012 engines will not even be allowed

to get the half of their useful life, if they are to be

eligible for Carl Moyer Program funds.

We are also concerned that South Coast AQMD is

not allocating Moyer funds for marine projects this year.

This is one of the most impacted air districts per CARB's

own assertion. This decision not to fund marine projects

this year is congruent with the implementation of the

Commercial Harbor Craft regs. We are concerned that this

is an unfunded mandate. The lack of concrete language in

the Moyer Program makes it difficult for commercial harbor

craft operators historically to apply for funding to go

zero emissions or to upgrade to cleaner diesel technology

as required by these regulations.

Next, we have concerns regarding safety and

stability. We want CARB to continue to be open and

transparent with the U.S. Coast Guard and an accreditation

body like American Bureau of Shipping to address the

following:

First, fire hazards due to increased temperature

from the aftertreatment systems required by the Commercial

Harbor Craft Rule.

Second, consider the vertical stability issues

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

for towing vessels as raised by the very CMA study which

is being used to justify these regulations.

The CMA study states that the --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

MAX COHEN: -- towing vessels out of Code of Regu

-- federal regulation for subchapter (m) vessels.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes your time.

MAX COHEN: Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Next will be Will

Roberts. You may unmute and begin.

WILL ROBERTS: Good morning. Thank you for the

opportunity to testify on the draft Harbor Craft Rule. My

name is Will Roberts and I am the President of Foss

Maritime Company. I also serve on the board of the

American Waterways Operators as the Chair of the Pacific

Region. In California, we work out of both the Bay Area

and LA/Long Beach with over 12 vessels and over 160

employees.

For the last three years, we have met with the

CARB staff on the proposed rules. You may be surprised

that none of our industry's recommendations are reflected

in this draft. While I'd like to be able to cover all of

my concerns, I'll instead point to the American Waterways

Operators comments, which I support and will highlight

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

what I believe is the biggest issue with this rule. Our

industry has a proven track record of adopting the

cleanest technology when feasible. My company, Foss

Maritime, introduced the first two hybrid tugboats to

California in 2009 and '11 and has carbon canister

filtration systems installed on our bunker barge fleet to

reduce carbon emissions during load operations, both well

ahead had of the regulatory requirements to do so.

Over the last three years, Foss has spent over

$16 million equipping and operating four new Tier 4

tugboats for California. All of these tugboats will now

need to be retrofitted. The engineering and upgrades will

cost millions of dollars for what are considered some of

the most environmentally leading tugboats in the world.

We have also upgraded multiple other vessel within our

fleet and those will need to be retrofitted as well.

A single retrofit could cost close to $4 million

and a new harbor tug costs close to $20 million. These

are significant investments, which will devastate

companies like mine, as we have recently spent so much to

retrofit.

My ask is will you create an exemption for

vessels currently with Tier 3 and above engines and allow

them to operate for their full useful life, with a

requirement that they'll be replaced after they're

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

retrofitted?

Please pass this current rule with these critical

modifications as to not destroy or already weakened supply

chain in California.

Thank you for your time.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next will be Elliot Gonzales. After Elliot will

be Leah Harnish, Lynn Muench, and Rick Luliucci.

Elliot, you may go ahead and begin.

ELLIOT GONZALES: Good after -- good afternoon,

good day. I did just want to just make a really belief

comment about -- in support of the Harbor Craft Rule. I'm

here today as a member of the Sierra Club My Generation

staff. We signed on to a joint letter of some of our

coalition partners led by Earthjustice. And what we

included in our letter is, you know, basically we just

reiterated the fact that we want to reduce cancer risk.

Here, where I live in about -- about a mile from the Port

of Long Beach, we have high risk of cancer. We are in

severe non-attainment. It's very common for people to

have respiratory ailments, whether they're in adulthood,

whether they're children, any stage of their life. And we

just take cancer, and asthma, and pollution very

seriously.

And so we're asking CARB to do the same. We

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

thank you for including constituents that may not be

front-line communities, but we ask that you prioritize

those who are actually suffering from severe ailments like

cancer when you make this decision. So we are here to

encourage this Board to do the right thing and to require

a 100 percent zero-emission at a certain further point

next time you reevaluate a harbor craft. And that we just

want to remind you that a harbor craft is critical to

addressing our -- our climate goals. So thank you for

hearing us out and we do ask that you support this item

today. Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Leah Harnish, you may unmute and begin.

LEAH HARNISH: Can you guys hear me?

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Yes, we can.

LEAH HARNISH: Great. Thank you.

Good morning. My name is Leah Harnish and I'm

the Government Affairs Associate at the American Waterways

Operators, or AWO, as you've heard, and I am our

specialist in clean air and water policy. Thank you for

the opportunity to testify.

AWO represents the largest portion of the

tugboat, towboat, and barge industry in the country with

over 300 members. Over the last three years, AWO and our

members have met with CARB staff and Board to discuss the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

Commercial Harbor Craft Rule.

During these meetings, we've expressed our

concerns about the rule and our desire to help CARB

improve air quality, and reach our shared zero-emissions

goal.

AWO has submitted comments to the document, but

I'd like to highlight our concern about the data that was

used to craft this policy. When AWO first started meeting

with CARB -- CARB staff, we notified them that the data

they were relying on was not an accurate representation of

the number of vessels operating in California. Staff uses

a U.S. Coast Guard database that reports vessel ownership

and regulatory status. However, where a vessel is

registered does not necessarily equate to where they

operate.

AWO commissioned an independent vessel inventory

using the automatic identification system, or AIS. AIS

tracks the movement of vessels and this report found that

over 200 towing vessels operated within 100 nautical miles

of the California coast. Nearly -- or only 200, nearly 30

fewer than CARB had estimated.

Policies must be built on accurate information.

And while staff has told us that they are regularly

updating, their model, the proposed rule does not reflect

this. We ask that this rule not be approved, but instead

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

reviewed and updated with health benefits and cost

effectiveness to better reflect the numbers and impact

that vessels have that operate in California regulated

waters. Thank you for your time

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Lynn Muench, you may unmute and begin.

LYNN MUENCH: Good morning, Madam Chair and CARB

Board members. My name is Lynn Muench. I'm the Senior

Vice President of The American Waterways Operators, the

national trade association for the tugboat, towboat, and

barge industry.

I'm pleased to report that we share CARB's and

Governor Newsom's goal of zero emissions. The towing

industry has embraced continual improvement over our

76-year history, especially when it relates to safety and

the environment. As an industry, we want what's best for

California and the nation's environment and its economy.

Unfortunately, this draft rule is not something

AWO can support. We ask you to take the unusual step in

voting no on it, pressing pause, and incorporating our

industry's input to improve this rule and make it

practical, possible, and safe for mariners.

The amendment before you have been written

without meaningful collaboration with the towing industry.

As Leah had mentioned, the vessel counts are wrong and the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

total emissions are also wrong. When we tried to review

the work and provide input to the staff, no substantive

changes were made and the databases that we were given to

evaluate were mislabeled.

As I said on the outset, the towing industry

embraces the same goal as the board, zero emissions. Our

industry is ready to go to zero emissions as soon as

possible, so we respectfully request that CARB vote no on

this, and add an exemption to the rule that allows vessels

currently with Tier 3 engines or above to operate for the

rest of their useful life with the stipulation that they

will be retired or become a zero-emission vessel once the

engine's life is up. In fact, we ask also for

consideration that has been given to other harbor craft in

this today.

We stand ready to work with CARB. And thank you

on behalf of the towing industry, the industry that moves

goods to California residents with the least amount of air

emissions per ton.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next will be Rick Luliucci. Rick, you may unmute

and begin.

RICK LULIUCCI: Good morning. This is Rick

Luliucci with The Vane Brothers Company.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

The tug, towboat, and barge industry is committed

to reaching zero emissions in the safest and most

efficient manner. However, the timeline proposed under

the new Harbor Craft Rule gives companies less than four

years to repower all of our vessels, and less than six

years to modify Tier 4 engines with diesel particulate

filters, which has not been invented for marine use.

This framework is neither financially feasible,

operationally achievable, nor responsible, as it

jeopardizes the safety of mariners and the viability of

businesses. Companies will rush the critical components

and not take the time necessary to ensure the retrofits

are completed and in a safe responsible manner.

While there is a one-year scheduling extension in

the proposed rule, the reality is this process goes

through multiple steps, including the United States Coast

Guard, which necessitates a much longer window. For the

sake and safety of our mariners and the sustainability of

this industry, we urge you to vote to amend the rule to

ensure that a safe timeline exists for mariners. Please

amend the deadline for complying with the diesel

particulate filter installation to no sooner than six

years from the date of the full approval of the United

States Coast Guard, the American Bureau of Shipping and

the engine manufacturers.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

I'd like to touch upon an unfunded mandate of

DPFs within this Harbor Craft Rule. Without the

availability of manufacturer-approved diesel particulate

filters, CARB is requiring the adoption of untested,

unproven, and unavailable technology. How does CARB see

moving forward with Tier 4 engines when DPFs are not

feasible on current vessels. They make the leap because

they do not understand the industry, the importance of

mariner safety in their desire to make a farce of this

public process.

This technology currently does not exist, cannot

fit in vessels, and it's a known safety hazard in other

modes of transportation. As a solution, please do not

move forward with this bad public policy. In its place,

amend the deadline for complying with DPF installation to

no sooner than six years from the date of approval by

Coast Guard, American Bureau of Shipping, and the engine

manufacturers.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next will be Graham Balch. And then Michael

Breslin, and Max Rosenberg.

Graham, you may unmute and begin.

GRAHAM BALCH: Hi. My name is Graham Balch with

Green Yachts.

CARB Board members and especially Davina Hurt,

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

who represents the San Francisco Bay Area, I am speaking

about ensuring that short-run ferries are zero-emission

without exceptions, an issue we were unaware of before the

November 19th Board meeting and thus unable to comment on

until now.

I've spoken to CARB staff and they have said that

the direction for addressing this issue must come from you

the Board members to be changed. We are proud that

California's the first state in the nation to require some

vessels to be zero-emission through these proposed CHC

regulations.

However, as written, the short-run ferry

definition in these regulations allows diesel boats to

game the regulations by adding legs or adding one long

leg, and by doing so operate a diesel boat on a short-run

route for which vessels are required to be zero-emission.

This loophole will cause over 2,000 tons of increased CO2

emissions in the San Francisco Bay every year.

Board members, please direct CARB staff to

include language in the 15-day change that close the

loophole in the short-run ferry definition that currently

allows diesel boats to operate diesel boats -- sorry -- on

zero-emission short-run ferry routes. We have submitted a

detailed written comment, but the direction has to come

from you.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next will be Michael Breslin. Mike, you can

unmute and begin.

MICHAEL BRESLIN: Thank you, Chair Randolph and

Board members. My name is Michael Breslin. I'm the

Director of Safety for the American Waterways Operators.

I am the safety expert for the tugboat, towboat, and barge

industry. My testimony is about diesel particulate

filters or DPFs. A simple Google search for DPFs for

California will return a record of the dangerous history

and ongoing issues with these devices. This mandate, if

passed unchanged, will require vessel owners to install

these unsafe devices, increasing the chance of a fire

aboard their boats.

Before you require -- (clears throat) -- Excuse

me. Before you require DPFs, I would ask that you better

understand these devices, which frankly do not exist in a

way that they could be safely installed in the proposed

marine applications. DPFs do not reflect best available

technology to support the advancement of clean technology.

Rather, it will cause and untenable burden on mariners and

possibly increase the carbon footprint of California by 14

boat owners to build new vessels or complete major

overhauls of their current vessels. This rule does not

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

meet its goal to reduce carbon output.

I would like you to know there is not the space

needed for these devices on existing vessels. There's no

room to install the large filters. And if somehow you

could build the space, it would impact that stability of

the vessel as established by Cal Maritime study, which

raised this concern.

Again, even if we could build in room for the

DPFs and we somehow made the vessel stable and had it

certified by a marine engineer, the pressure created by

the DPF would damage the engines, and the heat generated

by the DPFs may make the vessels unsafe to operate. DPFs,

even once approved, will not be ready use and will require

extensive engineering studies to determine if and how they

can be safely integrated into existing vessels.

It is unreasonable to require the implementation

of unproven and untested technology. As I indicated a

moment ago before any work is started to figure out how to

install DPFs and engineering study must determine its safe

installation of the specific make and model of the engine.

This is a cost that must be absorbed by our maritime

operators adding to the financial burden your rule is

imposing without consideration to the economic devastation

it will bring to America's supply chain by forcing

operators out of business, reducing capacity --

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes your time.

MICHAEL BRESLIN: -- without (inaudible).

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Next will be Max

Rosenberg. After Max will be Rebecca Baskins, Misagh

Tabrizi, and Frank Ursitti.

Max, you may unmute and begin.

MAX ROSENBERG: Hello. My name is Max Rosenberg,

a Bay Area native and engineering manager with Vane

Brothers. I thank you for the opportunity to comment

today.

The rule before you for a vote today is very

disappointing. It avoids opportunities for meaningful

incentive-based development of real emissions-reducing

technologies. Instead, it promotes de minimis emissions

reductions at huge costs that put California commerce,

jobs, and mariner safety at risk. This regulation is not

a bridge to zero-emissions. It is an off-ramp that we

take at great cost. The regulation requires equipment

that is unsafe, unproven, and frankly unavailable. CARB

expects major vessel refits in a completely unrealistic

timeline with very little account for lack of feasibility.

Tug and barge movement generates less than half

the emissions of alternative modes, such as road or rail.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

However, this rulemaking is predicated on the false

inference that commercial harbor craft are a leading

emissions contributor.

The inclusion of ocean-going articulated tug

barges in the harbor craft regulation ignores a prior

Board resolution to work with the industry in considering

their unique nature. This vessels perform most of their

work offshore competing with other vessels that are not

covered by the CHC regs.

We ask for a regulation that sets rational goals

for harbor craft to effect meaningful emissions

reductions, modify compliance deadlines for in-use Tier 3

or better engines, so that operators can realize a

reasonable portion of useful life, and allow adequate time

for engineering safety reviews and project timelines.

Postpone the requirement for diesel particulate

filters until a vessel's major -- next major shipyard

period after the equipment has been certified is safe.

Require the articulated tug barges to meet ocean-going

vessel At Berth Regulations instead of regulations for

harbor craft, which they are not. Provide an alternative

compliance pathway to promote the development of

zero-emissions technologies by allowing owners of vessels

with Tier 3 or better engines to run them for the full

usable life for operators that commit to replacing or

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

refitting vessels --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes your time. Rows

MAX ROSENBERG: -- with the best available

zero-emissions technology at the end of that period.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Our next speaker is

Rebecca Baskins. Rebecca, you may unmute and begin.

REBECCA BASKINS: Good morning, Chair and Board

members. Rebecca Baskins on behalf of the California

Advanced Biofuels Alliance. We are the state's trade

association for renewable diesel and biodiesel.

First, I would like to thank the staff for the

inclusion of renewable fuels in these amendments to the

Harbor Craft Regulation, but we would like to see the

inclusion of other renewable fuels, like biodiesel and

renewable diesel blends.

Blending renewable diesel and biodiesel together

maximizes the environmental and economic profiles of both

fuels. For example, a blend of renewable diesel at 80

percent and biodiesel at 20 percent is similar in NOx

reductions, but reduces more particulate matter than R99.

Blends can also help alleviate cost and supply concerns.

I also want to note that the proposed Appendix E

regarding biodiesel reflects outdated and false data on

biodiesel. Thus, we believe it should be removed or

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

updated to reflect the current data in the 15-day change.

Again, we thank you for your hard work on this,

but we believe the State is missing out on important

emission reductions by the exclusion of biodiesel in this

regulation.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next is Misagh Tabrizi. You may unmute and

begin.

MISAGH TABRIZI: Thank you. My name is Misagh

Tabrizi, representing Nett Technology, a Canadian

manufacturer of mature emission technologies, such as DPFs

and SCRs. The Board might be interested in hearing about

our recent successful CHC retrofit demonstration project

and how we worked with the U.S. Coast Guard on the design

and safety approval processes.

Currently, we are pursuing CARB verification for

this mature retrofit technology for CHC market aiming to

meet the proposed and future emission reductions of oxides

of nitrogen and diesel particular matter.

In short, our coordinated efforts with Coast

Guard resulted in our retrofit technology to meet

applicable codes on construction material both in terms of

the thickness and choice of material meeting applicable

electrical wiring codes, and meeting the skin surface

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

temperature requirement; additionally, the design products

with net weight increases of less than five percent; a

modular compact design with adequate thermo management,

available for all CHC applications ranging from low to

high duty cycles; comparable back pressure on engines

pre-, post-retrofit; and a fully automated system with the

least amount of operator engagement.

Separately in terms of the market readiness, I'm

happy to report that Nett Technologies has internal plans

for direct sales to end-users and fleets, to distribution

channels, and licensed in the technology to be able to

reduce the time it takes to provide this mature technology

to California, after granting the CARB verification.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next will be Frank Ursitti. After Frank will be

Andrea Lueker, Catherine Garoupa White, and then Bill

Magavern.

Frank, you may unmute and begin.

FRANK URSITTI: Good morning. Thank you, Chair

Randolph and members of the Board. My name is Frank

Ursitti, owner of H&M Landing, California's largest

sportfishing terminal. I also serve on the Board of

Directors for the Sportfishing Association of California,

and have been directly involved in this process throughout

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

its evolution.

On behalf of myself and others in our fleet, we

are in support of the CPFV extension path presented in the

resolution before you. This has been a long and difficult

process for our vessel owners. Their life's work and

legacies are on the table. Also, on the regulatory menu

is the future of affordable ocean access for all who

endeavor to venture forth upon the sea.

Both concerns have been addressed today by what's

been presented. I feel the effort is now positive,

constructive, and most important emission reductions are

achievable. There is an absolute willingness by our fleet

to collaborate with CARB and strive for continued

reductive measures in the future. The past 24 years of

emissions reductions using clean air attainment grants is

proof of the CPFV fleet's resolve.

I want to recognize Mr. Richard Corey, and Edie

Chang, and the CARB staff who took the time to engage

stakeholders here in San Diego. The information exchange

was sincere and brought everyone together towards a shared

and common goal.

I also want to acknowledge former Board Member

Nathan Fletcher. His willingness to support our sector

helped facilitate dialogue for an equitable resolution.

I ask that you approve the amendments as

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

proposed. Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Andrea Lueker, you may unmute and begin.

ANDREA LUEKER: Good morning. Are you able to

hear me?

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Yes, we are.

ANDREA LUEKER: Perfect. My name is Andrea

Lueker. I am the President of the California Association

of Harbor Masters and Port Captains. Our Association has

been around for 74 years and our membership includes over

70 harbors, ports, and marinas in California, as well as a

number of marine-related businesses.

While we acknowledge that there is still work to

do, we're relieved that the originally proposed

regulations have been amended to be more feasible and

relative. Thank you in advance for your vote on this.

One important point I want to leave with you

today is just a comment on the process. What we've all

gone through on the Harbor Craft Regulations for the past

many months has been difficult and debilitating for many

of those who were rightfully so fearful of losing their

businesses. We've all heard those gut-wrenching

testimonies. And for those of us in the trenches, we've

spoken to business owners in person who were basically

ready to throw in the towel prematurely.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

On a positive note, we're glad where we are today

on this issue. We do thank you for your efforts on

this -- on this issue. We look forward to your vote on

the resolution, working with you in the future, and have a

good rest of your meeting.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next will be Catherine Garoupa White. Catherine,

you may unmute and begin.

DR. CATHERINE GAROUPA WHITE: Good morning. This

is Catherine Garoupa White with the Central Valley Air

Quality Coalition. CVAQ, with partners, submitted a

letter supporting expeditious adoption and enforcement of

this rule to provide necessary relief to already

overburdened communities like the Port of Stockton and

surrounding areas.

I'm going to share comments from CVAQ's Stockton

based environmental justice intern who couldn't be here

today due to class, Nahui Gonzalez Millan.

"According to the Centers for Disease

Control, 1 in 12 children in the U.S. have

asthma, but in the San Joaquin Valley where I

live, research shows that 1 in 4 children have

asthma. The high levels of fine particles in the

valley contributes to poor air quality and higher

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

100

rates of asthma.

"I work as a pre-school teacher assistant in

Stockton. There are 16 children in my classroom

and four have asthma. These children have so

much energy for learning and school. They love

to dance and blow bubbles when they're outside.

They play chase during their outdoor play and

love to be with their friends. In one moment,

all of that changes. Activity becomes too much

for their bodies, their faces drop, and their

breathing becomes desperate. They have to slow

down and stop.

"The children in my classroom have done

nothing except breathe the air around them and

that has caused a condition they will have to

manage for as long as they live. In Stockton

Unified, approximately 30 percent of children

live in poverty. Their families live in areas

that are close the pollutants, such as railroads,

industrial areas, and the port.

"Our government institutions must protect the

children and families in our city from factors

that damage their health and quality of life. As

a concerned Stockton community member who is also

impacted by pollution from ships and other

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

101

sources, I urge CARB to adopt a strengthened

Commercial Harbor Craft Rule to hold commercial

harbor crafts accountable for the pollutants that

they bring to the area, and to expedite the

transition to zero emissions for all commercial

harbor crafts to ensure the air quality of the

area and the health of residents in Stockton.

Thank you".

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next will be Bill Magavern. After Bill will be

Mariela Ruacho, and Floyd Vergara, and Teresa Bui.

Bill, you may unmute and begin.

BILL MAGAVERN: Good morning. Bill Magavern with

the Coalition for Clean Air in support of the resolution

in front of you today. At the November Board hearing, I

asked that you adopt these amendments to the rule early in

2022 with no weakening and you're now poised to do exactly

that.

We appreciate that the staff have run a process

that gave every opportunity for public participation and

was very inclusive and certainly lengthy. This rule will

save over 500 lives and hundreds of hospitalization, and

reduce both toxic particulate matter and also regional

smog.

It puts the cleanest engines into place that are

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

102

available today to replace dirty old diesel engines and

also requires the use of renewable diesel to lower

emissions further. It also includes added protection for

disadvantaged communities that are bearing the worst

burdens of air pollution.

So we support the change that's proposed here for

the sportfishing fleets, because it will reduce emissions

sooner and greater overall, and then allow that

flexibility that we hope will result ultimately in those

vessels going to zero emission.

Thank you very much.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Mariela Ruacho, you can unmute and begin.

MARIELA RUACHO: Hi. I'm Mariela Ruacho with

American Lung Association. Thank you, Chair, for the

opportunity to comment here today. We see this rule as a

critical public health measure and an important

opportunity to address health inequities. We urge its

adoption today. Health and medical organizations like the

American Lung Association, the American Cancer Society,

the California Medical Association, the Long Beach

Alliance for Children with Asthma and others have

previously weighed in in -- to support the Commercial

Harbor Craft Rule.

To shift to -- the shift to cleaner and

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

103

zero-emission engines from the commercial craft sector

will cut smog and particle-forming NOx and most

importantly reduce cancer risk to portside communities,

which is not included in the monetization of health

benefits.

In addition, the rule will provide the following

avoided health outcomes as highlighted by staff, which is

the 531 premature deaths, 161 hospital emissions, 236

emergency room visits, and an estimated $5.25 billion in

health benefits between 2003 and -- '23 and 2038.

We want to thank the staff's diligent work

to con -- to continue the conversation with stakeholders

and find innovative pathways to ensure a strong rule,

delivers near-term and lasting health benefits. We

support the proposed amendments and ask the Board to

approve the rule -- to finalize the rule today.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Floyd Vergara, you can unmute and begin.

FLOYD VERGARA: Great. Can you hear me?

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Yes, we can.

FLOYD VERGARA: Great. Thank you. Good morning,

Chair Randolph, Board members and CARB staff. Thank you

for the opportunity to speak today. I'm Floyd Vergara

with Clean Fuels Alliance America, the U.S. trade

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

104

association representing the entire supply chain for

biodiesel, renewable diesel, and to a growing extent

sustainable aviation fuel. My comments will reinforce the

comments you heard earlier from Rebecca Baskins with the

California Advanced Biofuels Alliance.

We believe the proposal requiring the use of 99

percent renewable diesel blends, or R99, is an important

step in the right direction, and we appreciate the staff's

willingness to discuss ways in which the proposal can be

improved. Unfortunately, the proposal remains

unnecessarily restrictive, in that it only allows R99

exclusively.

As laid out in our written comments, we believe

the optimal solution would be to allow the use of other

blends, such as 80 percent renewable diesel and 20 percent

biodiesel blends or R80/B20 in addition to R99. Both fuel

-- both fuel blends reduce GHGs and NOx by significant

degrees, and both fuels reduce particulates substantially,

R80/B20 by about 29 percent and R99 in the proposal by

about 27 percent, according to CARB data.

It's that additional benefit of reducing diesel

PM with R80/B20 that I want to highlight for the Board,

since any additional reductions in diesel PM will greatly

benefit environmental justice communities, many of which

are located near the ports.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

105

I also note that many of the very lowest carbon

pathways for liquid biofuels are made in this state by

California biodiesel producers, including New Leaf Biofuel

in San Diego, Crimson Renewable Energy in Bakersfield, and

Imperial Western Products in Coachella. In-state

biodiesel producers employ many Californians and support

million of dollars in economic activity. Excluding

biodiesel from this proposal would prevent these

California producers from being able to bring their lowest

polluting fuels for use in harbor craft to benefit all

Californians.

There's a number of factual errors we address in

our written comments. We urge you to direct staff to

provide a minor 15-day change to allow the use of R80/B20

and other biodiesel blends --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes your time.

Next will be Teresa Bui. After Teresa will be a

phone number ending in 977, Matt Holmes, and then Jennifer

Case.

Teresa, you may unmute and begin.

TERESA BUI: Good morning, Chair Randolph and

Board member. This is Teresa Bui with Pacific

Environment. We are pleased with the strong and

meaningful direction of this rule and just want to

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

106

knowledge all the hard work done by staff to get to this

the point.

We greatly appreciate all the stakeholder

outreach that has been conducted. And while we had

ultimately hoped for a hundred percent zero-emission

mandate for all vessel segments out of this ruling, given

the urgency of ending toxic fossil fuel pollution in

California and moving all transportation sources off

fossil fuel, we feel the final rule is still a meaningful

step forward to end ship pollution and are in support.

This is the first-in-the-nation standard on

commercial harbor craft and want to thank CARB for your

leadership on this rule to set zero-emission standards for

short-run ferries and excursion vessels. Harbor craft is

one of the top three sources of cancer risk around the

ports of LA, Long Beach, and Oakland and they're work is

not over yet. We need to get all the other vessel

categories to zero emission as well.

We especially need zero-emission vessels in the

areas that are in non-attainment with the Clean Air Act.

And we are excited to see the frequent technology review

and the tech -- technical working group, as we're seeing

rapid market maturation for electric boats, ferries, and

vessels in South Korea, China, Singapore, and the EU and

beyond. We look forward to working with you all to

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

107

rapidly transition the rest of the vessel segments to zero

emission. And than you again.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next is a phone number ending in 977. Please

state your name for the record and then I will let you

know when you have 30 seconds remaining and when your time

is up.

And you will need to press star six to unmute.

TOM BABINEAU: Thank you. I want to thank staff

and Board members for this opportunity to provide support

for this regulation. My name is Tom Babineau. I

represent Rypos and active DPF manufacturer. Since 1996,

Rypos has produced tens of thousands of active DPFs that

have operated for more than 50 million hours to date

without a safety incident.

Like many of the previous regulatory efforts,

regulations and technologies are necessarily advancing in

parallel, so there's a natural tendency for us all to ask

are these technologies ready? Have they been tested?

Will they work?

I've attended all the public workshops and this

is a constant theme. Given that DFP's effectiveness to

reduce PM is proven, I'd like to spend my time today on

readiness and durability, which by extension, speaks to

safety.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

108

DPFs, if sized properly and used on compliant

engines, have accommodated all forms of engine load cycles

for years. They're successful in the ports and RTGs

offloading container ships and are successful on TRUs that

deliver food across the nation. They've been around for

years. They've been tested over time and they're proven

to uncover -- the ARB process of verification has been

tested over time and has proven to uncover and weed out

problems.

In order to find the uncharted problems, however,

testing is not only required by ARB through the

verification process, but we do our own of course. So we

don't need the headaches that threaten our very existence.

So in 2006, Rypos retrofitted a U.S. Navy barge,

which operated for over 19,000 total combined hours

without incident. In 2014, the U.S. Office of Naval

Research in partnership with UC Riverside --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Fifteen seconds.

TOM BABINEAU: -- independently tested these DPFs

and found them to be operating as designed. Again, zero

operational safety issues have occurred.

We presently have --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

TOM BABINEAU: -- two DPFs --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: That concludes your time.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

109

If you could state your last name for the record again,

that would be great.

TOM BABINEAU: Yeah. Thomas Babineau.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

TOM BABINEAU: I will submit these in writing

too. Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Okay. Sounds great.

Thank you.

Next will be Matt Holmes. You may unmute and

begin.

MATT HOLMES: Good morning, Chair Randolph and

members of the Board. I'm Matt Holmes. I'm a portside

resident of Stockton, California, and I am, of course, in

strong support of passage of the strongest possible

Commercial Harbor Craft Rule.

This is an easy one for me, because I'm in

Stockton, where there aren't any leisure craft or fisher

fleets to speak of. We just have industrial operations

that are filling their bank accounts on the daily while

foot dragging on upgrading their equipment to maximize

profits, while we die more or less ten years earlier than

everyone else on this call.

We're the state's industrial colony and we live

in constant non-attainment with the Clean Air Act. This

rule is one more measure California can put in place to

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

110

let the Feds know that at least CARB is doing its parts to

address non-compliance, since we know we can't count on

our regional air district to take the Clean Air Act

seriously.

And I really sympathize with some of the smaller

operators we've heard from today and I wish there was a

more nuanced application of the rule that acknowledged

this difference. I'll be the first person to sign a

waiver for the guide taking disabled youth out on the

water. Lumping him in with somebody dragging the ocean

floor should give everybody on here pause. You know,

maybe we could figure out how to do that based on annual

operating costs. And while there should maybe be a public

benefit assessment for compliance deadlines for some of

these folks, no doubt for the rest of them I'd say if

someone can't afford to run a safe boat, then maybe

they're in the wrong line of business.

You know, I'd like to live in Lake Tahoe, but my

capacity to do so remains challenged by the cost. Is

there a CARB program that can make my unnecessary dreams

come true? I don't think so.

For the concerns we've heard today, I'll just gut

check the Board, that these pleas that we're hearing, you

know, they aren't un resistance to your rule. It's about

the stinging awareness that they've never really paid all

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

111

of their own bills. This self-reliance crowd seems to be

addicted to externalizing their costs in the portside

communities. It's high time welfare-addicted businesses

in California learned how to pay their own bills and stop

pretending to get their businesses to pencil out by

burying their unaddressed pollution in our bodies. No one

has a right to run a dirty business, while we all have

equal protection under the law and a right to an entire

first-world lifespan.

Please center in your minds the stats on cancer

and other respiratory distress that your team has and

while these operators pull out their pockets demanding

subsidies.

I'll closeout by reminding you that you've never

subsidized our hospital bills.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes your time.

Next will be Jennifer Case. After Jennifer will

be Nilda Langston, Sylvia Bentancourt, and then a phone

number ending in 990.

Jennifer, you can unmute and begin.

JENNIFER CASE: Good morning. Thank you, Chair

Randolph and the Air Resources Board members. Our

business New Leaf Biofuel in San Diego recycles used

cooking oil from San Diego restaurants and converts it to

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

112

biodiesel fuel, an ultra low carbon fuel that achieves an

80 percent reduction in carbon emissions compared to

petroleum diesel.

We commend the Board for continuing to push for

regulations to some day achieve a fully zero-emission

fleet of vehicles both on-road and marine. However, we

believe that CARB is missing a huge opportunity by not

recommending biodiesel as an alternative to achieve

improved air quality goals in this regulation.

As mentioned by a previous speak, the renewable

diesel supply is already very strained and we're all

experiencing extreme hardship right now with the rise in

fuel prices. Biodiesel is readily available in San Diego

and all up and down the coast of California and it's

priced at a substantial discount to petroleum and

renewable diesel.

Blending renewable diesel and biodiesel together

maximizes the environmental and economic profiles of those

fuels. For example a blend of RD and -- at 80 percent and

bio at 20 percent is similar in NOx reductions, but

reduces more particulate matter than R99. It is also the

best available solution to address asthma and cancer

concerns while the state waits for zero emission to be

fully implemented. We urge CARB to reconsider the

exclusion of biodiesel in this important regulation for

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

113

the benefit of the environment, the economy, and small

businesses.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Nilda Langston, you may unmute and begin.

NILDA LANGSTON: Good morning, everyone. I am

Nilda Langston. I operate a glass-bottom boat in Long

Beach. And as the only Latina-owned company, I can tell

you that the -- I support the green goals that we have for

the State. And these are aggressive goals. But at the

same time, I ask you to consider that with a aggressive

goals comes the need for aggressive funding, and that's

not available.

Even to get to Tier 3, with the new -- with the

new guidelines today, my funding to move to Tier 3 reduced

to 20 percent of the project. And to be able to amortize

a loan in a short amount of time, I won't be able to even

get the life of the engine out of that type of loan on

funding.

And while we support -- we're just a small team,

small operators, we a hundred percent support the goals of

the State. And we want to do everything we can to produce

clean emissions. But at the same time, I ask you to

consider all the aspects that this includes. We're just

coming out of a hard, hard couple of years, all of us

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

114

having to deal with COVID, having to deal with labor

issues that has happened as a result of COVID, and the

lack of -- or the generalization of the problem is where I

ask staff -- which they've been great. They've been great

on certain questions, and emails, and providing the

extensions. That's a relief to hear about the extensions

today, because I -- to tell you the truth, I didn't know

what was going to happen to our little company here.

And so I just ask you to reconsider and maybe put

a pause, because with -- like I say, with the aggressive

goals requires aggressive funding that is not available

for all of us.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next will be Sylvia Betancourt. After Sylvia

will be a phone number ending in -- oh, it looks like

Sylvia just dropped off.

So a phone number ending -- Oh, Sylvia, I see

your hand went back up. Okay. Sylvia Betancourt and then

a phone number ending in 990, and William Smith.

Sylvia, you can go ahead and begin.

SYLVIA BETANCOURT: Good morning. Sorry. I

dropped my hand in anticipation of getting my comment.

My name is Sylvia Betancourt. I work at the Long

Beach Alliance for Children with Asthma. We're based at

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

115

Miller Children's and Women's Hospital of Long Beach and

we're part of the Asthma Center of Excellence, which is

one of two centers on the west coast. And we take on this

particular illness as we know that there is a high asthma

rate in our region and that we have the challenge of air

pollution.

I want to also thank the California Air Resources

Board and staff for all of your hard work on this

particular ruling and on this -- on this issue. I'm

calling in support. And I urge the Air Resources Board to

pass the strongest possible Commercial Harbor Craft Rule

today.

I want to highlight the work that we do is

directly on the front lines working with children who have

asthma. Our hospital serves 70 percent -- 70 percent of

our patients are Medi-Cal patients. And the majority of

our families that we serve are in the harbor region. And

many of these children face diesel exposure daily. We

know that diesel exposure has a huge impact on children's

health. We know that this regulation would dramatically

reduce diesel pollution in Southern California, and where

harbor craft constitute one of the top resources of DPM in

the region.

We know that medicine is a solution for illness,

but medicine is a reaction. What we need is to address

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

116

the problem at the source. We need to have children in

school, not in the hospital or the ER. We need their

parents and their caregivers at work and not at home

taking care of children, missing work, and putting

themselves in more vulnerable position to having to miss

work. So we ask that the Board take action to safeguard

current and future generations in the harbor region.

Thank you for your time.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next will be a phone number ending in 990.

Please state your name for the record before you begin.

And next after the phone number ending in 990 we will hear

from William Smith, Tim French and Harry Simpson.

You should be able to press star six to unmute

and then you can begin.

HARVEY EDER: Hello. Am I being heard?

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Yes, you are.

HARVEY EDER: Okay. Good afternoon -- I mean,

good morning. My name is Harvey Eder. I'm speaking for

myself and for the Public Solar Power Coalition and

like-minded folks and entities.

I'm not as up on the details of this as I should

be. I heard a number that -- with this rule that 500

deaths are going to be prevented. Okay. I don't know if

that's 500 over -- per year or over 10 years, 50 a year.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

117

Okay. But here's -- here's the things that -- that we've

been working on and have brought to you all.

The history of the cost of premature deaths, in

the '07 plan, it was 7 -- 3 -- 3.5 million for premature

deaths. And in the '12, plan it was -- it was seven

million for premature death. And in the '16 plan, based

on '15, it was nine million for premature death, okay?

Now, with the Indirect Source Rule, they're using

like Rule 10 to 12 million, all right? A thousand times a

thousand is a million. A thousand times -- a million

times a thousand is a billion. So that's $10 billion per

thousand deaths. The State says there's 7,500 that's for

air pollution, 5,000 in the South Coast, okay?

The real numbers, okay -- Lancet in '18, we got

this from Pedro Piqueras, a doctor for the South Coast

specializing in health air pollution law. They said

there's 1.1 to 1.5 million premature deaths in the United

States per year.

A million times a million --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Twenty second remaining.

HARVEY EDER: -- is a trillion. Okay. That's

from 10 to 15 trillion for the U.S. cost. Ten percent of

that goes here. That's the whole economy of the State

basically. That's a half to two-thirds of the economy

just using those numbers without -- we got -- we got 85

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

118

percent in schools of kids that have asthma. They don't

get paid when they don't go to school.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes your time.

HARVEY EDER: All this other -- these costs are

real --

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next will be William Smith. You may unmute and

begin.

WILLIAM SMITH: Good morning. Can you -- am I

being heard?

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Yes, you are.

WILLIAM SMITH: Okay. Good morning. My name is

William Smith. I am the owner of the CPV vessel Riptide

in have Half Moon Bay. And I have just, just finished

repowering to a Tier 3 motor. And I support the SAC and

the GGFA position on this. I want to be allowed to

operate and maximize my use of this engine. My vessel was

small and I am -- would be unable to put the converter in

here. So my position is that I would like you to support

the position of both the GGFA and the SAC coalition.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. Our next

speaker will be Tim French. And then I'll just read off

the list of the last speakers for this item. Tim French

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

119

and then Harry Simpson, Josh Gaylord, Scott Hedderich,

Greg Hurner, and Ryan Mack.

Tim, you can unmute and begin.

TIM FRENCH: Good morning. Thank you. My name

is Tim French and I'm speaking on behalf of the Truck and

Engine Manufacturers Association. And EMA would like to

reiterate five points.

First and foremost, while EMA fully supports the

deployment of the most advanced propulsion systems that

are commercially available, we still have a number of

significant concerns regarding staff's proposal,

especially given the very short lead time before the

proposed amendments would take effect, which can occur as

early as next year.

Second, manufacturers currently produce very

clean SCR-equipped Tier 4 commercial marine engines in a

broad range of power and displacement categories.

However, the types of Tier 4 Plus engines that the amended

regulations would mandate are not commercially available

across the regulated power range nor are sufficient

verified Level 3 DPF retrofits.

Third, instead of trying to compel the deployment

of unavailable hybrid Tier 4 Plus systems, CARB should

work to foster the accelerated installation of available

Tier 4 systems. Those Tier 4 products could include

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

120

engine families certified at emission levels compliant

with the Euro 5 stage -- excuse me, the Euro Stage 5

standards. And significantly, Euro Stage 5 systems are

equipped the DPFs.

Fourth, CARB should fully coordinate any final

CHC amendments with the U.S. Coast Guard. Without that

full coordination and without accounting for the new

burdens on vessel owners to obtain additional Coast Guard

approvals, this rulemaking will face many significant

obstacles.

And fifth and finally, all aspects of the

proposed amendments will require a preemption waiver from

U.S. EPA before CARB attempts to enforce them. Given the

demonstrated lead time and cost effectiveness concerns at

issue, a preemption waiver should not be viewed as a

foregone conclusion in this case.

Thank you for the opportunity to testify today.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next is Harry Simpson. You may unmute and begin?

HARRY SIMPSON: Hi. My -- can you hear me?

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Yes, we can.

HARRY SIMPSON: I'd like to thank Chair Randolph,

and the members of the Board, and CARB staff for the

opportunity to comment on the proposed Commercial Harbor

Craft Regulations. My company, Crimson Renewable Energy,

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

121

is the largest producer of biodiesel in California.

For nearly a decade, we have produced

consistently over 50 percent of the biodiesel produced in

California, specifically we produce ultra low carbon

biodiesel from -- produced from 50 -- sorry, produced from

used cooking oil and other inedible waste an byproduct raw

materials. We play a significant role in helping

California and our customers decarbonize challenging

transportation emission sectors, such as heavy-duty

trucking, rail, agriculture and construction equipment.

Crimson and the biodiesel industry can play a

similar role in the marine sector to decarbonize and

reduce harmful particulate matter and hydrocarbon

emissions associated with marine fuels. As members of the

California Advanced Biofuels Alliance and the Clean Fuels

Alliance of America, we wish to align ourselves with the

comments they have submitted as well as comments submitted

by the Renewable Energy Group.

In particular, the proposal unnecessarily limits

biodiesel content in marine diesel fuels and prevents 100

percent renewable alternative marine fuel blends such a

the renewable diesel, 80 percent biodiesel, 20 percent

blend from being used in the marketplace for marine fuels

For the communities hardest hit by negative help

impacts associated with diesel fuel in California's ports

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

122

and harbors, this means those communities will be deprived

of the reductions in harmful PM and hydrocarbon emissions

that can be delivered by biodiesel fuel blends.

Additionally, we are disappointed by the tone

taken towards biodiesel within Appendix E of the proposed

amendments to the regulations, especially in light of the

fact that Air Resources Board has approved biodiesel for

in-state use in California for over a decade and we have

seen (inaudible)--

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes your time.

HARRY SIMPSON: -- four billion gallons of

biodiesel in California.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. Next will be

Josh Gaylord. You may unmute and begin.

JOSH GAYLORD: Good morning. I'm Josh Gaylord

with Flagship Cruises here in San Diego. We operate a

harbor tours, whale watching, and ferries on the bay

serving as an affordable access point to our bay for the

community.

As Californians are experiencing higher gas

prices through the nation, we need to keep alternative and

less polluting per capita transportation methods

affordable.

The Governor has announced providing free public

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

123

transportation for three months to help commuter

ferries -- or -- are an important component of the public

transportation system and critical to reducing the

traffic, and congestion, and emissions from our roadways.

These are roadways that transect our most

vulnerable communities and are demonstrated by the

greatest pollution burden on these communities. We are

more than willing to continue to invest in lowering

emissions for our ferries, but the technology must be

available. It must include State funding to maintain the

affordability that will incentivize consumers to abandon

their cars. And most importantly, we need to be -- we

need a reasonable time frame to work with shipyards and

technology providers to construct and deploy new systems

as they become available.

We carry about 800,000 passengers a year that

would normally drive the six miles through the community

we are trying to protect. We feel that this isn't really

considered in the carbon impact. We have up -- repowered

to Tier 3 and reduced speed to minimize our impact on the

environment. Tier 3 has also removed us from some of the

grant opportunity, which kind of works backwards on the

whole thing we're trying to achieve here with lower

emissions.

We've engaged an engineering firm to look at the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

124

zero emissions opportunities. And so far, it's not

feasible for us to maintain our service and feasibility as

an affordable alternative to driving across the bridge and

driving through these communities.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you. That

concludes your.

Our next speaker is Scott Hedderich. Scott, you

may unmute and begin.

SCOTT HEDDERICH: Good morning. Good morning,

Chair Randolph and members of the Board. My name is Scott

Hedderich. Appreciate staff trying to spell it or

pronounce it. I'm with the Renewable Energy Group, a

leading manufacturer or renewable and biodiesel in the

U.S. I do want to make sure that we associate our

comments those of CABA, CFA, and the other in-state

biodiesel manufacturers.

I want to talk about something very specific that

hasn't been mentioned, except I think by one of the last

speakers around Appendix E and that's explain why the

proposed language addressing biodiesel in Appendix E

should be removed, excuse me, from the rule, or failing

that should be thoroughly edited and rewritten to reflect

valid factual information and evidence. Many of the

claims made about biodiesel in that section are simply

wrong. They're based on antiquated studies dating from

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

125

2006 to 2012, and they are no longer relevant nor accurate

in light of new data.

For example one statement in the ISOR reads,

"Biodesel, which is a methyl ester compound that should

not be used in high quantities with retrofit

aftertreatment". We've simply found no evidence to

support this claim whatsoever that biodiesel cannot be

used in high quantities with aftertreatment devices.

We've been using B20 in NTDEs on road for a significant

amount of time, and no it's not a problem.

CARB's own finding in the 2015 ISOR for the ADF

determined that engines that meet the latest emission

standards through the use of selective catalytic reduction

have been shown to have no significant difference in NOx

emission based on the fuel used. And it should be pointed

out that that study included testing 100 percent

biodiesel.

It's disappointing that CARB would choose to

present such misleading and inaccurate information on a

fuel that's approved for in-State usage, has had over 1.4

billion gallons consumed, and has delivered 12.3 million

credits of carbon reduction in the LCFS. We again ask

that this section be deleted, short of that working with

industry to ensure that it at least reflects current data

and not data that's 12 to 15 years old.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

126

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Greg Hurner, you can unmute and begin.

GREG HURNER: Thank you.

Thank you, Chair Randolph and members. Again, I

want to reiterate from the sportfishing communities, your

thanks for your comments at the November meeting.

Additionally, Chair Randolph, I want to thank you for your

personal involvement and the involvement of the

legislative staff and your advisors that were -- that

engaged with us, and also definitely want to thank Richard

and Edie, Heather, Bonnie, and David for their engagement

with us and their professionalism.

Dr. Balmes made a statement in November that

really struck me, and that was about the impacts from the

rule and the effects that it can have on those that are

subject to the rule. And we need to consider those

impacts. That's part of the non-monetary impacts that

we've discussed with your staff and with you, and we

really appreciate the engagement in that regard, and think

we have found a very good path.

We are very interested in working with the engine

manufacturers through the technology review to find out

what they can bring to the table. We know there's future

promises. We also know that there are zero-emission

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

127

technologies out there that are coming forward and we look

forward to working with the Pacific Environment and the

Coalition for Clean Air on helping the transition of all

harbor craft.

And lastly, I just want to thank the bipartisan

groups, some of legislators, some of those that the Chair

mentioned at the beginning of the meeting. This has been

a collaborative and productive effort. And it's truly

appreciated, and we look forward to continuing to engage

in the future.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Next will be Ryan Mack. And after Ryan, Beau

Biller, I saw that your hand went back you, that it was up

earlier, and you're able to speak now.

So, Ryan, you may unmute and begin.

RYAN MACK: Is it still morning?

Hello, everybody. Can you hear me?

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Yes, we can.

RYAN MACK: All right. Hello and good morning.

My name is Ryan Mack. I'm the founder and owner of MP

Strategic group. It is a think tank comprised of Cal

Maritime grads from different disciplines such as marine

transportation and engineering, as well as policy. Myself

and my colleagues love maritime policy and hope to one day

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

128

develop better maritime policy for the mariner.

I was proud and excited to see a Cal Maritime

feasibility study cited in the commercial harbor craft

methodology for the rulemaking. However, the Cal Maritime

study clearly states that Tier 4 plus DPF is only

attainable on the largest newest tugs.

Considering -- I'm going to repeat this from Max

Cohen's point, but considering the vertical stability

issues for towing vessels that are raise in the very same

CMA study, which is used to justify the regulations,

towing vessels in subchapter (m), according to 46 CFR 170

will be put out of compliance for the regulation. It

specifically states that it is not meant to put vessels

out of compliance with CFRs, but it may, in fact, be doing

so.

It would be naive of me to think that the CHC

Regulation will be overturned. But moving forward, I

employ CARB staff to work with the United States Coast

Guard on vessel stability, safety, and heat with these new

DPF systems. Recently, there was a fire on board the Miss

Dorothy, a tug located on the Mississippi River. The

cause of that fire, according to the NTSB was due to

diesel spray on an exposed exhaust manifold. While this

vessel did not have a DPV or SCR, addition a heat on the

exhaust manifold will raise the likelihood of a fire on

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

129

board these vessels.

And I would just like to conclude and say that I

have a -- I have a unique responsibility as a mariner to

protect my fellow mariners in ensuring that vessel

stability, safety, and reliability is paramount. So thank

you so much for your time.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Thank you.

Beau Biller, you can unmute and begin.

Beau, are you there?

It doesn't look like you're unmuted.

Okay. Sorry, Beay. We're not able to hear you.

You can please submit your written comments on the

website. We're unable to -- it looks like you're not

unmuted on your end. Sorry about that.

Chair, that concludes the commenters.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you. Staff, are there any

issues raised in the comments that you want to address?

EXECUTIVE OFFICER COREY: Nothing to add, Chair.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Okay. Thank you.

EXECUTIVE OFFICER COREY: Excuse me. There's a

comment that legal wants to make.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Alex Wang, are you on?

SENIOR ATTORNEY WANG: Sorry. Hello. Sorry.

Yeah. This is Alex Wang. I'm a staff attorney assisting

staff on this rulemaking item.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

130

Chair Randolph and members of the Board, nearly

all of the comments provided today do raise issues that

had been previously submitted and considered by staff.

Specifically in regards to environmental comments

received, we have already provided you with comprehensive

responses to those comments, in a response to comments on

the Draft Environmental Analysis, which include comments

submitted again today. Staff has not identified any new

significant -- sorry, staff has not identified any new

significant information in the comments today that have

not already been addressed.

Staff would, however, like to provide an

additional response to the comment letter submitted today

from the Clean Fuels Alliance America and California

Advanced Biofuels Alliance. While that letter does not

identify a significant environmental effect, the

regulation, it states that the responses we provided to

comments 3196-1 and 3196-2 in the response to comments

document appear to have been based on misconceptions and

misunderstandings regarding the R99 proposal.

Specifically, the letter states that the proposed R99

requirement would result in fewer particulate matter

emission reductions versus the renewable 80 and biodiesel

20 fuel blend.

Staff believes that the responses provided for

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

131

comments 3196-1 and 3196-2 in the Final Environmental

Analysis response to comments document reflects the most

recent information and accurately reflects the reductions

of particulate matter, NOx, and life-cycle greenhouse gas

benefits that would have been achieved by the proposal to

require use of R99 or higher blends of renewable diesel.

We're aware that there may be some PM reductions

from R80/B20 blend compared to R99 or greater, but those

potential benefits must be weighed against the potential

relative NOx increases from the biodiesel and the blends,

in addition to other performance concerns. And those

concerns are responded to in comments 3235-4 in the Final

Environmental Analysis response to comments document.

There is no other diesel fuel blend than R99 or

higher that provides a greater amount of NOx reductions,

and, as outlined in our staff presentation, there is a

shortfall on the NOx reductions needed to meet the goals

of the State SIP Strategy. Comments regarding PM

reduction benefits from use of B80/B20 do not -- do not

indicate that a significant environmental effect would be

caused by the proposed regulation.

In addition to achieving less NOx reductions, use

of blends of biodiesel by more than five percent would not

comply with the standards for CARB diesel, according to

ASTM D-975. The proposed amendments require use of

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

132

verified diesel emission control strategies verified

pursuant to 13 California Code of Regulations 2700 to 2711

et seq., which requires additional analysis and testing

for use of alternative diesel fuels, such as biodiesel.

The use of biodiesel could also conflict with

requirements of vessels that travel internationally or

into international waters, such as the MARPOL Annex VI

regulation 18 requirements, that require testing to ensure

no increases in NOx emissions.

All right. Thank you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you. I will now close the

record on this agenda item. Any written or oral comments

received after this hearing date will not be accepted as

part of the official record on this agenda item.

If the Executive Director -- I'm sorry, if the

Executive Officer determines that additional conforming

modifications are appropriate, the record will be reopened

and a 15-day Notice of Public Availability will be issued.

If the record is reopened for a 15-day comment period, the

public may submit written comments on the proposed changes

which will be considered and responded to in the Final

Statement of Reasons for the regulation. The Executive

Officer may present the conforming modifications to the

Board for further considerations if warranted, and if not,

the Executive Officer shall approve or disapprove such

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

133

modifications and take final action to adopt the

regulation after addressing all conforming modifications.

All right. Ready to bring this to the Board. If

any Board member has a question or comment please raise

your hand if in person or click the raise hand symbol, if

you are on Zoom.

I'm going to kick off with a question. And this

seems to me, you know, kind of the most key issue in this

process. So I wanted to kind of set it out at the

beginning. And I think the commenter Shawn Bennett

articulated it best with kind of the fundamental questions

about technological feasibility and safety. You know, he

mentioned issues around power stability, and safety, and

other concerns related to DPFs. And so I thought it would

be important for staff to sort of discuss with the Board

kind of the process and safety considerations that go into

the approval of engines and DPFs. So if staff could

respond to that, that would be --

EXECUTIVE OFFICER COREY: Yes. David Quiros will

respond, Chair.

TTD FREIGHT TECHNOLOGY SECTION MANAGER QUIROS:

Well, thank you, Chair Randolph and members of

the Board. Safety is a top priority for us as an air

quality agency when we're requiring the use of

technologies like Tier 4 engines and diesel particulate

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

134

filters. We've worked with other bodies like the U.S.

Coast Guard a number of times, and we're going to continue

to work with them as we go into the implementation of this

rule, if approved.

One thing to keep in mind is that there are DPFs

that are certified by the United States Environmental

Protection Agency for marine use to the Tier 3 standards

that have DPFs on them, and those have been certified

since 2017.

On CARB's role of that, we verify the aftermarket

DPFs through a rigorous procedure that you heard about

today from Rypos and Nett Technologies called the

verification process. And through that process, in

addition to verifying levels of emissions reductions of

diesel PM of 85 percent or more, we also require the

applicants to demonstrate the potential safety and failure

modes associated with their strategies, and what

mitigation measures that they're supposed to be using to

make sure that those DPFs are safe.

So CARB would not verify something with a known

performance issue with a DPF. In our recent conversations

with the Coast Guard, we've also learned that they too are

asking at the local level what type of safety measures are

in place on these marine DPFs as they're beginning to be

tested and verified for use in the rule.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

135

So one such project that Nett Technologies is

involved with the S. Bass tug that's operating down in San

Diego. And that is currently undergoing verification, and

the Coast Guard is being looped in, and it could be

potentially a technology that would be used to comply with

this rule.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Okay. Thank you.

All right. Any other Board members would like to

comment or ask questions?

Vice Chair Berg.

VICE CHAIR BERG: Thank you. And thank you staff

and everybody who have been stakeholders that have been

participating in this regulation. It is complicated.

There are many duty cycles that we are addressing here and

it's a long established industry. And so we know that

when we go to the next steps, that that does make industry

very nervous. What we also know that is the benefits are

overwhelming and we know that we need to be forward.

I thought it would be helpful if staff could

clarify a couple of things. One, we heard time and time

again about technology not being available specifically in

the Tier 4 area and DPFs. I think -- and yet in staff's

presentation, they did mention that 22 engines were

available. So if we could just have a little clarity on

the availability of technology, and if technology is not

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

136

available, what's -- what's the process. I think that

would be extremely helpful.

The other thing is the simplification of

extensions. It did seem that I thought I didn't realize

the cost of the $54,000 for the needed documentation for a

small company. That is very extensive. If you have one,

two, three vessels that's a lot of money. So I'd be very

interested in how the simplification has -- is going to

impact positively on this process.

And then I think my last clarification truly is

to address we have very short time frames. This is an

aggressive rule and we have very short time frames, so

there is going to be some barriers. There's going to be

things backing up. This is a lot of engineering. This is

a lot of preparation to retrofit, or to put new engines,

or to get new vessels. And so what's going to be the

process when things do get backed up for these companies?

And then finally, I'd really appreciate to hear

from staff this issue of useful life. I have to say that

I am sympathetic to the useful life issue. We're

asking -- if we only started from now and the amount of

investment, but people have been making investments to get

to Tier 3s and Tier 4s. And so how are you thinking about

that, especially in light of going to zero, which we know

is our ultimate goal. So I would appreciate some thought

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

137

about that.

Thank you so much.

EXECUTIVE OFFICER COREY: David Quiros is going

to take this as well. David.

TTD FREIGHT TECHNOLOGY SECTION MANAGER QUIROS:

Thank you, Vice Chair Berg. This is David

Quiros. I captured four questions that you raised to

staff. Let me touch on them in order here.

The first one was on Tier 4 engine availability

and DPF availability. We did have in our staff report, we

said in the staff presentation, that there are 22 models

of Tier 4 engines that are available. That would be

certified by U.S. EPA for marine use today. Not all of

those will fit in the in-use vessels that are operating in

California today. And there might be some combinations of

duty cycle ratings or engine power sizes, where there just

isn't a Tier 4 engine certified.

So built into the regulation and the proposal in

November, there's an extension pathway that would allow

operators to get extensions, two years at a time, and

there would be no limit to the number of two-year

extensions, if technology is just not certified.

The separate question is whether it fits in the

vessel, and that's the feasibility extensions that we've

heard a lot about in the staff presentation that are

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

138

limited to six years for most vessels and eight years for

passenger vessels with earlier compliance deadlines.

On the DPF side, there are some OEM engines,

engines made by engine manufacturers that are certified by

U.S. EPA with DPFs today. Those are in the Tier 3 class.

There are no Level 3 DPFs that could be used with Tier 4

engines today, but we heard from two retrofit

manufacturers and one engine manufacturer that is

certifying or verifying engines that would meet the Tier 4

plus DPF standard.

Similarly, if there's no DPFs available by a

compliance deadline, that's not a feasibility question,

that's an availability question. And there's no limit to

the number of two-year extensions that would be available

to the operators that would need to comply.

The second question you asked was about the

simplification of the compliance extension process. The

CMA report, after reevaluating the direction in November,

can be used by some vessel categories to satisfy the

third-party Naval architect analysis. An initial idea

that we have is for the first of the two -- the first two

years of the six to eight year total of feasibility

extensions, that that report would be able to satisfy the

technical basis if a vessel is made out of wood or

fiberglass. We might be able to use that CMA report in

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

139

broader context, but at a minimum, we should be able to

use it for the wood and fiberglass vessels.

The third issue that was raised was the

short-term time frames for compliance. So in the first

five years of the regulation being implemented, 2024

through 2029, vessels were the highest emissions have

compliance dates. Tugs, for example, have high activity,

large engines, and directly pollute near-shore

communities. Ferries are in that category. They have a

direct passenger impact. That's why they have early

compliance deadlines.

The compliance dates can be extended due to the

extensions either availability or feasibility. And if the

feasibility extensions are granted in full, that could

mean that vessels don't have to take action to reduce

their emissions until 2030.

So that leads to the fourth topic you raised

about the useful life. We heard requests about useful

life of up to 25 years and we don't doubt that a lot of

the operators take good care of their engines, have good

maintenance practices, and that engines can last that

long. With the compliance dates that are proposed in --

back in November, most engines will have at least 10 to 15

years before they have to turn over to something new. And

we recognize that those engines might have been able to be

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

140

operated longer, but we do need to achieve reductions,

especially as there's a need to reduce diesel emissions

and then also the promise of zero-emission technology on

the horizon.

And the last thing that I'll say is that every

year where there's an opportunity to reduce cleaner

combustion emissions by 90 percent, it would take 10 years

of zero-emission operation to make it up.

So we can't wait for zero to be here for the

majority of the harbor craft that are operating where

there's an opportunity to achieve the public health

protections that we need today.

Thank you.

VICE CHAIR BERG: Thank you, David. My follow-up

question is is that given that it is a shorter useful

life, that was taken in consideration for the cost

analysis? So did you use a 10 or 15 year life in the cost

analysis?

TTD FREIGHT TECHNOLOGY SECTION MANAGER QUIROS:

The useful life that was assumed in the emissions

was also carried forward into the cost analysis. And in

many cases, if there was remaining useful life, that's an

asset to the company, because they can sell or trade that

asset outside of the state. And in many cases, due to the

current Harbor Craft Regulation, our engines are equal to

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

141

or cleaner than what other states or outside jurisdictions

of California are using.

VICE CHAIR BERG: So do I understand that to be

no?

TTD FREIGHT TECHNOLOGY SECTION MANAGER QUIROS:

We did use the cost -- the useful life of the

engines into the consideration, yes.

VICE CHAIR BERG: Okay. And then may I ask one

more question. And I'm not sure it will be of David, but

I was intrigued by the -- the speaker that talked about

Humboldt Port and the fact that they were in a compliant

area. Sounds like a small port operation. Could someone

make a comment on that?

TTD FREIGHT TECHNOLOGY SECTION MANAGER QUIROS:

This is David Quiros, I can start responding to

that. One thing is that we --

VICE CHAIR BERG: Thank you, David.

TTD FREIGHT TECHNOLOGY SECTION MANAGER QUIROS:

-- recognize is harbor craft do operate across

the state. In some cases, certain vessels are dedicated

to one region. But we do really need a statewide rule,

because even if a region achieves the National Ambient Air

Quality Standards, that doesn't mean that the emissions

don't adversely impact the communities of where those

vessels operate. So in order to assure that vessels that

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

142

operate across the state provide public health

protections, we have a statewide rule.

VICE CHAIR BERG: Thank you very much.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Board Member Hurt.

BOARD MEMBER HURT: Thank you. I'd like to thank

the staff for the additional outreach and all the work on

the regulation since November. I'd like to thank all the

public commenters and just the variety of stakeholders

that I have met with between now and this Board meeting.

Everyone who requested a meeting, I made time.

And so I want to thank all of you for sharing how this

regulation impacts your businesses and your families. And

to Graham Balch of Green Yachts, I've never met you

before, but I'm happy to meet with you. So please reach

out. It would be much appreciated to learn more about

your business around electric yachts.

I do understand how unsettling some of this may

feel for some of the folks that have to have great change

in their business, and in this industry, and that there

are some unknowns around technology feasibility and

availability, but I'm reminded of how we are one community

and where everyone must move through the necessary change

to really meet this unprecedented need to reverse the

negative effects of climate change and improve the air

quality, especially in highly impacted communities. And

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

143

so I believe this edited or amended resolution is really

threading the needle with many of the stakeholders, and

they are diverse in their needs.

With that said, I, too, continue to be concerned,

especially in the wake of the pandemic, for small

businesses boat owners. And I'm concerned about the

implementation process and ensuring that we continue these

businesses forward, that in some cases have been around

for generations.

But we also must not forget the negative impact

to public health that happens every day we wait in making

changes, especially in highly impacted communities.

I think of communities near Oakland and LA ports

that have bore the burden of everyone's consumption for

decades. They, too, have families, and businesses, and

generations living under dire conditions. And I note, and

I'm very thankful staff showed the cancer risk, while it's

still not eliminated with these regulations, there is

great improvement in those communities. So this is why we

must move forward with this regulation with the

appropriate guardrails. I've heard loud and clear that

technology for some boat types are in flux or not

available, and others just really have grave concerns

around funding and implementation.

My ask of the Board and staff is not just a

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

144

technical feasibility, but also an implementation review

of how this regulation is progressing, how the

case-by-case extensions are going. It is BAAQMD's

experience today and in the past that it takes months to

get sign-off on a case-by-case extension, even in clear

cases.

I did ask in my briefing, you know, are we going

to increase the budget, are we going to have staff to

really meet the need? And I understand that that's in

process. But we need to get this right, so that this

regulation really serves our end goals.

I also would like for us to assess the industry

pace of ship builders and retrofitters. The ability of

small boat owners to get in those necessary queues to get

the retrofits in new boats I think is absolutely essential

and cannot be lost in this process. I think about the Bar

Pilots of San Francisco that have a 24/7 business that

requires that they're moving, and operating, and guiding

freight movement in the Bay. If there's limited pilot

service, ocean-going vessels will not be able to come to

shore and plug up, and they will idle in the bay around

communities again highly impacted, which brings me to

funding.

Around the grant funding, I understand that the

deadlines and the surplus agreement under Carl Moyer grant

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

145

prevents funding -- or rather is not an option for many

folks to rely on as it's currently situated. I understand

that we are the regulators and we should do our best to

shape our funding programs, however, to meet the needs, so

that it's a successful regulation. I urge staff to find

solutions around that, whether it's a shortening of the

surplus years from three to two, or maybe extending that

option. And maybe the IPAG group can take a look at how

that's affecting the harbor craft folks.

I've also heard that there's folks lobbying the

Capitol for more funding. And so this data around

implementation, as well as technology feasibility I think

will be beneficial. So if we could add those, again the

implementation review I think it will helpful in the

freight ask.

So with that said, I truly appreciate and support

the compliance schedule and the extensions with financial

hardship and feasibility at the front, equity centered, is

really going to important for me when we talk about the

streamlining of those extensions. I said in the last

meeting that those who receive funding from Carl Moyer

should be able to maximize those efforts with appropriate

extensions. And I want to continue to keep that raised up

as an important element in this regulation moving forward.

And so just again, if we could, in addition to

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

146

the technical feasibility biannual review add an

implementation review.

But I'm ready to move forward. I know it's going

to be a difficult reg, but I think it's important.

Thank you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you. Board Member De La

Torre.

BOARD MEMBER DE LA TORRE: Thank you. I want to

thank staff as well. This, you know, two-part hearing

process a lot has gone on, a lot leading up to the initial

hearing and then obviously there's been more meetings,

more discussions with industry. And we hear the concern.

It's a big leap for many of you.

I am supportive of the adjustment being proposed

for the fishing fleets. Those boats are unique. They're

small. They're light. They -- you know, they're just

different. And so I'm very supportive of getting the

immediate air quality improvements that we can get and

work with you going forward.

I also am very supportive of the mid-term review

on the technological viability. That's very important. I

know you don't see us do this all the time, but I want --

I want to be clear. We -- when we do a mid-term review,

it is a thorough, real mid-term review. So that isn't

just a talking point here. We're going to do it. It will

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

147

be thorough. And if we identify things that are missing

at the time, technologically, we -- we'll adjust. And we

do that regularly here. So I want to -- I want to assure

you that that is a real and significant commitment on the

part of the Air Resources Board.

The extensions that are being proffered here with

across the Board, very unusual. We -- when we do a

extensions, they're normally, one-offs that we allow the

Executive Officer to determine. In this case, it is a --

an across-the-board extension offer at the -- when the

time comes, when your dates come up for your particular

vessels, and that is extremely unusual for us.

Yes, we -- I share Vice Chair Berg's concern in

terms of the timing of it and Board Member Hurt's concerns

about being able to process these. But the fact that

we're doing an across-the-board extension is extremely

unusual for us, and I think a sign that staff and the

Board recognizes that you -- that we are taking this big

leap, and, you know, we want to be as flexible as we can.

Finally, on the dollars for -- and this is

particularly for the Catalina Ferry. I am -- I've said

this before. I'll say it again. I'm very sympathetic to

the issue of Catalina. I have not been able to find

another scheduled ferry to an island offshore of

California. There are charters, but it is -- to my

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

148

understanding, it is the only sched -- regularly scheduled

ferry service to an island offshore in California.

It is the lifeline to that island for the people

who live there and then obviously for the tourists who go

back and forth. I've been there many times. It is part

of, you know, being in Southern California, or being in

California at all. So very, very important that that

lifeline is maintained.

I have spoken to Senator Allen and Assembly

Member O'Donnell about this. They have committed to work

with us on finding the funding to help the Catalina ferry

make this transition.

So we've talked about various ways it can be

done. You know, it's the legislative process which I know

all too well can -- it is -- it is the sausage making that

everyone hears about all the time, but there's a few

months here to really shape what that proposal looks like

and gets some resources particularly to scheduled ferry

service to offshore islands in California.

So that's it in terms of my comments. I do have

a question on the articulated barge, because I heard this

a few times in different meetings, that there was a

difference in definition between California and the

federal government on articulated barges, whether or not

they're harbor craft or ocean-going vessels. So I'd like

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

149

an answer to that question. But I am supportive of the

measure today for all the reasons I said.

Thank you.

TTD FREIGHT TECHNOLOGY SECTION MANAGER QUIROS:

This is David Quiros. I'll respond to your

question, Board Member De La Torre. California, CARB in

particular, has regulated ATB tugs since 2009 as harbor

craft and the U.S. Coast Guard also classifies ATB tugs as

harbor craft as subchapter (m) towing vessels.

BOARD MEMBER DE LA TORRE: Thank you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Okay. Thank you.

Board Member Takvorian.

BOARD MEMBER TAKVORIAN: Thank you, Chair. I

just wanted to add that I do support the measure as

proposed. And I appreciate the collaborative work of CARB

staff and particularly the Sportfishing Association and

industry, which seems to have created a pathway that's

feasible.

I understand the concerns that have been raised

and I appreciate the addition of the mid-term review,

which I hope will respond to many of the questions that

have been raised about technology. I do want to

emphasize -- we've been focusing a lot on feasibility, and

a bit on economics, but I want to emphasize that the

reduction of the cancer risk from these vessels and

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

150

improvement in the air quality and health is really

significant and especially in environmental justice port

and coastal communities from Oakland to San Diego. It's

quite significant.

In San Diego, these vessels are a significant

emissions source and they are included in the 617 program

CERP. And it accounts for over half of the diesel

particulate matter from off-road sources and 47 percent of

the NOx. And the emissions from these vessels represent

about 28 percent of the cancer risk to portside

communities -- to the portside community of Barrio Logan.

And I just wanted to be really clear about the exposure

for those of you who may not have seen this in -- in

different portside communities, but in San Diego. And we

appreciate that CARB staff were able to come and visit and

see the exposures for themselves. The tug maintenance

yard in Barrio Logan is located right next to the only

peer on San Diego Bay that's accessible to Barrio Logan

and right next to the only bayside park, where students

from the neighborhood elementary school recreate, because

there's no playground at the school. So they walk over a

railroad track and through heavy-duty trucks that are

barreling down the streets in order to get to this park,

because they have nowhere to play at the school.

I was there last week and saw U.S. Navy members

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

151

using the park for exercise as well. So make no mistake,

there's quite a bit of exposure. The park is well used

and we're very hopeful that the tugboats can transition to

zero emissions sooner than we're currently anticipating.

And again, that's why the mid-year -- mid-term review is

quite important and we're -- we're very inspired by the

pilot demonstration of zero-emission tugboat in San Diego

and the ferry in San Francisco. So we look forward to

hearing the results of those pilots.

So again the mid-term review is very good marker

to -- to really indicate what the transition can be and I

appreciate the addition of that measure.

Thank you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you.

Supervisor Vargas.

BOARD MEMBER VARGAS: Thank you. Thank you,

Chair Randolph. And I just wanted to add to some of

Member Takvorian's comments. First and foremost, I want

to thank you for -- you know, as the representative of our

San Diego portside community, I want to say thank you to

all the staff for all the work up and to this point, and

coming to San Diego and to visit the sportfishing fleet,

which really compromises small ownerships and family

businesses. And I think it was really important that this

rule really made sure that for the AB 617 communities had

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

152

additional considerations, and that the engagement that

took place.

As it was mentioned, our San Diego portside EJ

community is the second category of higher pollution

sources impacting Barrio Logan, National City. And so

this support -- this directly is going to support several

of -- several of our CERP strategies and actions. And so

the MOU that we have with CARB, our APCD staff is actually

ready to assist fleets. And then we'll be planning

outreach activities to harbor craft business as well. So

I really appreciate the inclusion of our technical working

group for the biennial review. I think it's extremely

important.

So again, I want to just thank CARB staff, my

colleague, Supervisor Fletcher, who spoke earlier today as

well for all of his engagement, and the Portside Community

steering committee for the work in the CERP. I know it's

tough, but I think this rule allows us enough time to

transition the fleets. And I'm supportive of the staff's

recommendation as well, so thank you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you.

Dr. Balmes.

BOARD MEMBER BALMES: Thank you, Chair Randolph.

And, you know, going kind of late in the queue of

Board members, much of what I would say has already been

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

153

said and said well. I particularly want to highlight

Supervisor Hurt's comments. You know, she stole the line

that I was going to use, that staff, with the revised

proposal, has thread the needle.

You know, there's a tension, which I remarked

about and others did in November between trying to

maintain small business -- businesses that are impacted by

this regulation and the public health benefits that are so

important to portside communities.

And I think staff has done a good job in

threading that needle. I -- I appreciate Supervisor

Vargas for mentioning the technical working group. You

know, I think the mid-term review is very important, but

the biennial technical working group -- I may have the

biennial wrong, but the technical working group where

staff and affected industry stakeholders will be working

together I think is real -- is key and we really need to

make sure that that functions well.

I also appreciate Supervisor Hurt saying that in

addition to the mid-term review on technical matters,

there should be implementation review as well. You know,

I think that probably is what staff is proposing, but the

implementation part is important to include the

barriers -- economic barriers, as well as the technical

barriers to getting cleaner vessels that move us towards

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

154

zero-emission ultimately.

And I just want to take this opportunity to

praise Executive Officer Corey for his role in threading

the needle here. I realize that there's a whole team

effort here from Chair Randolph to staff. But since I

won't be able to attend the April Board meeting, I want to

say thank you for Mr. Corey's effort on this regulation

and the many regulations and policies that I have worked

with him on over the years. If this is your last hurrah,

Richard, it's a good one.

Thank you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you.

Board Member Kracov.

BOARD MEMBER KRACOV: Yes. Thank you, Chair

Randolph. Coming here at the very end obviously want to

thank staff for working so hard for so many years, and

particularly the last few months in coming up with a more

consensus based rule. You know, kudos to the staff for

sure on this, just a great job all the way.

And, you know, support the comments of all my

fellow Board members today. And do also want to highlight

Counsel Member Hurt's -- I'll call you Supervisor Hurt

too, is that okay? Give you the promotion that Dr. Balmes

gave you, but Supervisor Hurt's highlighting of the role

of the technological assessments, both in terms of the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

155

technology and where it's going, as well as the

implementation. I think Mr. De La Torre raised that as

well.

And, you know, I come from South Coast Air

District. I've heard a lot from the different

stakeholders. All these different categories of vessels,

you know, are in the South Coast District. So it's

important being the rep from the District to hear from

these stakeholders and ensure that the rule and how it's

implemented is done in a fair way to industry, and, of

course, all the folks that have to breathe the emissions

from these vessels.

But I have, you know, heard from some in the

industry, particularly the ferries and the tugs. So I

wanted to ask a question about that, Mr. Executive

Officer. You know, we've made this move now with the

sport fishers to Tier 3 with the technological assessment.

And we see where we go with that.

We have not made that revision or proposed it for

the ferries or for the tugs. And I spoken to folks like

Greg Bombard at Catalina, who, you know, is very concerned

about the costs of this rule on his, you know, really

critical fleets as Mr. De La Torre mentioned.

So I think it's very important that we explain

the reasoning on this. So let me just ask the question,

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

156

and then I'll have some other comments, please, Chair.

But for Mr. Corey, and, of course, you can defer that to

Mr. Quiros or whoever else ably can describe this in staff

in hopefully a detailed and persuasive way. But why are

the other categories, particularly the ferries and the

tugs and those kind of boats, not being given the same

Tier 3 plus treatment as the sport fishers? If we could

explain that to the stakeholders today in a persuasive

way, in a thoughtful way, I'd really appreciate it.

EXECUTIVE OFFICER COREY: Thanks, Board Member

Kracov. David Quiros will take this question as well.

TTD FREIGHT TECHNOLOGY SECTION MANAGER QUIROS:

This is David Quiros. Thank you Board Member

Kracov. That's a really good question as to why the

sportfishing vessel flexibility couldn't be offered to the

other sectors. And the stars just really happened to

align to provide this opportunity to provide early

reductions for the sportfishing sector that overall would

not increase emissions over our valuation period.

One thing to keep in mind is that the

sportfishing vessels do not have compliance requirements

to upgrade engines under the current Harbor Craft

Regulation, which means that there's still a decent

fraction of them that are Tier 1 or pre-Tier 1 or

so-called Tier 0 engine operated. A lot of the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

157

sportfishing vessels have upgraded to Tier 2 or 3, but

there were enough of them that also had feasibility

concerns as demonstrated by our Cal Maritime feasibility

study, because that fleet is mostly all fiberglass and

wood construction. We assumed that 99 percent of them,

that would have to go to Tier 4 plus DPF would have to be

replaced based on current engine technology.

That's not the case with the excursion vessels,

with the ferries, with the tugboats. Feasibility is a lot

better. They also don't happen to be operated by

predominantly a small business industry, and they are

mostly Tier 2 or Tier 3 now, which minimizes the

opportunity to upgrade to Tier 3 and achieve early

reductions that could give a little more time to

transition to that Tier 4 plus DPF by 2035.

The final thing I'll say is that the other vessel

categories still do have the extension process where they

can get to six to eight years of extra time, if they can

demonstrate technical and financial infeasibility.

BOARD MEMBER KRACOV: Okay. So thank you for

that Mr. Quiros. And, you know, I think it's important

that the stakeholders and industry, you know, sort of hear

this as the justification for why we're moving in this

direction. We do have the compliance extensions. We do

have the technological assessment that's going to give us

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

158

a sense. And, you know, there might be reasons to revisit

this rule after the technological assessment is done in a

few years.

But the other key thing, and I know Mr. De La

Torre focused on this too as well as others, is the

funding. Now, I don't have all the relationships he does

to, you know, be speaking with Senator Allen and

Assemblyman O'Donnell, but I do know that, you know, all

of us have a role in trying to assure that the funding for

these sectors is available to the fullest extent possible.

For example, Moyer, you know I know that Moyer

dollars are apportioned among the districts and that, you

know, how the different sectors get that apportionment

also is a decision that's up to the districts themselves.

So you have committed to those folks in my Air District,

you know, that I personally, you know, want to have a

relationship with you. With the folks that we've just

met, this is the start of a relationship, but I'll be

following up, you know, with you and with District staff

to see if there are opportunities to increase the funding,

you know, dedicated for the marine sector.

And, you know, I guess this is a question for

Executive Officer Corey, you know, as a Board member, you

know, in addition to that, you know, whether there are

things that we can do, either internally at the agency or

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

159

externally with legislative leadership, you know, options

for directing additional incentive funds to this category.

It seems like we're going to pass this rule

today. Folks are going to have some time, but we know

there's constraints. So Executive Officer Corey, what do

you think, you know, we as Board members can do to try to

help get the incentive dollars to this sector as we're

encouraging this very significant transition?

EXECUTIVE OFFICER COREY: Yes. Thanks, Board

Member Kracov. That's a perfect question. And given the

timing as a budget is put together, State budget, and

ultimately refined over the next several months, sharing

your perspective with legislative leadership, as well as

the Administration would be incredibly helpful at this

point in terms of the opportunities and need for

incentives to pull forward the application of cleaner

technologies and get reductions even earlier. That would

be incredibly helpful over the coming weeks and months as

the budget is refined and ultimately acted on and -- at

the end of June.

BOARD MEMBER KRACOV: So we have our work cut out

for us and thank you for allowing me to ask those

questions, Chair.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: All right. Thank you.

Seeing no other comments, the Board has before

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

160

them Resolution number 22-6. Do I have a motion and a

second?

BOARD MEMBER DE LA TORRE: So moved, De La Torre.

BOARD MEMBER BALMES: Second, Balmes.

BOARD MEMBER HURT: Second, Hurt.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Okay. I think Board Member Hurt

managed to slide the second in right before Dr. Balmes.

So, Clerk, would you please call the roll.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Dr. Balmes?

BOARD MEMBER BALMES: Yes.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Mr. De La Torre?

BOARD MEMBER DE LA TORRE: Yes.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Mr. Eisenhut?

BOARD MEMBER EISENHUT: Yes.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Senator Florez?

BOARD MEMBER FLOREZ: Florez, aye.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Ms. Hurt?

BOARD MEMBER HURT: Aye.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Mr. Kracov?

BOARD MEMBER KRACOV: Yes.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Dr. Pacheco-Werner?

BOARD MEMBER PACHECO-WERNER: Yes.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Mrs. Riordan?

BOARD MEMBER RIORDAN: Aye.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Supervisor Serna?

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

161

BOARD MEMBER SERNA: Aye.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Professor Sperling?

BOARD MEMBER SPERLING: Aye.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Ms. Takvorian?

BOARD MEMBER TAKVORIAN: Aye.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Supervisor Vargas?

BOARD MEMBER VARGAS: Vargas, aye.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Vice Chair Berg?

VICE CHAIR BERG: Aye.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Chair Randolph?

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Yes.

BOARD CLERK ESTABROOK: Madam Chair, the motion

passes.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: All right. Thank you very much.

Okay. It is about 12:30 and we will take a

45-minute lunch break, and we will be back at 1:15 for our

next agenda item.

Thank you.

(Off record: 12:28 p.m.)

(Thereupon a lunch break was taken.)

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

162

AFTERNOON SESSION

(On record: 1:17 p.m.)

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you very much.

That last item on the agenda is Item number

22-5-2, draft scenarios for achieving carbon neutrality in

the 2022 Scoping Plan update.

If you wish to comment on this item, please click

the raise hand button or dial start nine now. We will

call on you when we get to this portion of the item.

This is the second of two informational items

scheduled to hear from staff about progress in developing

the 2022 Scoping Plan update and details on specific

legislation and considerations guiding this process. This

item builds on the February Board item that provided an

introductory overview to the 2022 Scoping Plan update.

The Board also held a joint meeting with the

Environmental Justice Advisory Committee on March 10th to

directly engage with Committee members on their

recommendations.

Today's item provides the Board, the

Environmental Justice Advisory Committee and the public

another opportunity to hear from staff as they work

towards analyzing options, tools, scenarios, and

integrating environmental justice and equity

considerations into the Scoping Plan to achieve carbon

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

163

neutrality no later than 2045.

Since the Legislature passed the California

Global Warming Solution Act in 2006, there have been three

Scoping Plans approved by the Board. The first plan

outlined actions to return to 1990 emissions levels by

2020, a task at the time seemed impossible without a heavy

economic toll, but one that was ultimately achieved ahead

of schedule during unprecedented economic stability.

Nevertheless, the climate impacts predicted prior

to the adoption of the first Scoping Plan are being

realized in California and beyond. The 2021 report by the

Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC, tells

us that we must achieve global carbon neutrality by

mid-century to avoid the worst impacts of climate change.

This means in California and globally, we must achieve

deep decarbonization across all sectors of the economy by

2045 requiring that we escalate our mitigation measures in

the near term.

The modeling presented today includes four

scenarios where fossil fuel dependence is eliminated or

drastically reduced. A future that phases out fossil fuel

combustion will also deliver the critical air quality

benefits needed to address ongoing air pollution

disparities for our communities of color and low-income

households. This transformation away from fossil fuel

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

164

combustion will come with a high cost. Significant

investments today are critical knowing that the payback

will be in future decades in the form of avoided higher

damages from climate change.

Moreover, as we move away from combustion of

fossil fuels, we must also continue to cut short-lived

climate pollutants, or SLCPs, like methane and

hydrofluorocarbons. We need to ensure success in reducing

fossil fuel emissions isn't hampered by emissions of these

super pollutants. And the modeling you will see today

shows how many of the SLCPs persist, even if we phase out

all fossil fuel combustion.

The framework for carbon neutrality also

highlights the role of natural and working lands, a

critical yet underutilized sector, and other mechanical

carbon dioxide removal technologies will play in balancing

out any emissions remaining in the system. The natural

and working lands modeling presented today, is a

first-of-its-kind effort to estimate and quantify the role

of natural and working lands as part of our toolkit for

addressing climate change.

The time to double down on our efforts is now.

For communities disproportionately burdened by the impacts

of climate change, there is no more time left. In line

with statutory direction, this Scoping Plan update is

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

165

going to set a cost effective and technologically feasible

path to continue our progress towards our 2030 goals and

carbon neutrality no later than 2045 that can attract

partners and be exported to other regions.

This plan will incorporate the final

recommendations from the Environmental Justice Advisory

Committee to the extent possible to ensure that all

Californians, including low-income communities and

communities of color, who continue to be on the front

lines of experiencing the negative impacts of climate

change are not left behind.

This plan needs to integrate environmental

justice and racial equity, while including strategies to

protect those most vulnerable from any negative impacts.

For this to happen, dialogue and partnerships with the

Environmental Justice Advisory Committee and communities

of across California is critical.

It will also take international action and strong

interstate and jurisdictional partnerships to solve this

global threat. As such, building on the partnerships we

have cultivated across the country and the globe will

continue to be a priority for me and this agency. As has

been the case historically, the benefits of this plan will

be broader than just climate change. Its implementation

will also help improve public health by reducing the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

166

emissions burdens experienced by front-line communities.

Today's item is one of the several -- several

opportunities the Board, members of the Environmental

Justice Advisory Committee, and the public will have to

engage on this important effort.

Mr. Corey, would you please introduce this item.

EXECUTIVE OFFICER COREY: Yes. Thanks, Chair.

And as you noted, the 2022 Scoping Plan

represents the third update to the State's Climate

Strategy. This plan will assess how our progress towards

achieving our Senate Bill SB 32 2030 target and lay out a

technologically feasible and cost-effective path to carbon

neutrality no later than 2045.

The first draft of the Scoping Plan update will

be presented to the Board in June, but today, as you

noted, we have another opportunity that builds upon the

February Board hearing to hear from staff and the public

on the progress and considerations relevant to the plan.

The modeling presented today shows that we'll

need to double, triple, or even more our efforts to

develop clean technology and energy to achieve our 2030

and longer term targets.

The red flag warnings as noted from hundreds of

scientists in the IPCC report have told us we're out of

time. We cannot afford to let the perfect be the enemy of

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

167

the good and we must consider the science and role of

every tool available to us to start the transition away

from fossil fuels and start removing carbon from the

atmosphere. As such, carbon dioxide removal is included

in every scenario staff will present.

The 2022 Scoping Plan must address the scale of

the transition and will recommend technologically feasible

and cost effective tools to achieve carbon neutrality no

later than 2045 as noted. And for the first time, it will

layout the quantified role our gnat and working lands will

play in achieving that goal. In this update process,

staff will continue to work with the Environmental Justice

Advisory Committee and other stakeholders to provide

meaningful public engagement in support of the building an

actionable path to meet our greenhouse gas reduction

targets.

We have the tools and we know where we need to be

in the next 20 years. The Scoping Plan will outline the

path to get there. We must do it in a way that supports

our actions being exported elsewhere.

Over the course of the next month, staff will be

holding workshops on the economic and air quality modeling

for the scenarios being considered. I'll now ask Maureen

Hand of the Industrial Strategies Division to give the

staff presentation.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

168

Maureen.

(Thereupon a slide presentation.)

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Thank you, Mr.

Corey.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: The Scoping

Plan is required by statute and is an actionable plan that

lays out a cost effective and technologically feasible

path to ensure we meet the statewide greenhouse gas

reduction targets through direct emissions reductions for

sources in the state.

Each Scoping Plan relies on a suite of policies.

Implementing the outcomes identified in the Scoping Plan

requires a combination of incentives, regulations, and

carbon pricing, many of which are mandated or authorized

via statute and that focus on direct emissions sources in

the state, with the exception of imported electricity.

AB 32 requires that CARB update the Scoping Plan

at least once every five years. This is our fourth

Scoping Plan update. At a minimum, each plan leverages

traditional air quality policies to provide both

greenhouse gas and air pollution emissions reductions. We

are required to minimize leakage, which is the situation

where production of goods and jobs leaves the state giving

the appearance that we've reduced emissions, but in

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

169

reality resulting in merely shifting emissions outside of

the California border. When production leaves the state,

not only does it shift emissions outside of California's

borders, but it can also result in a loss jobs and

economic activity in the state.

Finally, AB 32 requires that policies in the plan

are cost effective with flexible compliance options and it

directs CARB to facilitate subnational and national

collaboration. Climate change is a global issue and

without action from like-minded partners, we will still

face the impacts of climate change. For global

pollutants, such as greenhouse gases, a reduction anywhere

is a benefit everywhere.

Our goal has always been to develop scalable and

exportable programs that other jurisdictions can implement

and use to reduce emissions within their borders. That is

one of our biggest contributions to addressing this global

threat.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: As mentioned,

direction on Scoping Plan goals and objectives are

informed by statute and Executive Orders. Each Scoping

Plan is a high level actionable plan that spans across all

sectors. This is the step we are discussing today. After

each Scoping Plan is adopted, CARB and other State

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

170

agencies start the process of reviewing and updating

related programs or developing new programs to align with

any outcomes identified in the Scoping Plan.

Aligning these programs relies on multiple

divisions across CARB and other State agencies taking

action based on their established roles and authority.

For CARB, that means we bring forth dozens of regulations

and programs to the Board to approve, which will help

implement the plan. Each of these has their own public

process and detailed technical analyses. For example,

that means that some regulations can take at least a

couple of years to develop through a public process, go

before the Board for adoption, and follow the rest of the

required regulatory steps involving approval by the Office

of Administrative Law, and filing with the Secretary of

State before regulations become effective.

Once regulations and programs are in effect,

there is additional time for projects to be constructed,

or for equipment turnover, or retrofits to occur.

Therefore, the emissions reductions from these actions

will take some time to show up in the AB 22 inventory.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Since we kicked

off the 2022 Scoping Plan update in June last year, we

have heard from California stakeholders through public

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

171

workshops and Environmental Justice Advisory Committee

meetings. We have conducted 12 public workshops including

a three-day kick-off series with sector-focused

discussions for modeling scenario workshops, and topical

workshops covering natural and working lands, engineered

carbon removal, short-lived climate pollutants,

electricity, building decarbonization, and public health.

We have received many written comments that we

used to design both AB 32 sources scenarios and natural

and working lands scenarios. We received comments from EJ

organizations, industry representatives, individuals,

topical experts, and other affected stakeholders. We

received written comments from the EJ Advisory Committee

for the AB 22 source scenarios and we have explained how

these comments were incorporated in the scenario inputs.

In addition, conversations with the EJ Advisory

Committee Working Group for Natural and Working Lands

informed those scenarios. Last week, on March 15th, we

held a public workshop to present the modeling results

based on these scenario design inputs.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: The overlay of

carbon neutrality in our long-term climate planning means

we need to redefine our scope of sources and sinks in that

framework in the 2022 Scoping Plan. Carbon neutrality is

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

172

achieved when emissions sources equal sinks. Up until

now, every Scoping Plan has focused on reducing emissions

from fossil energy and industrial-focused sources defined

in the AB 32 inventory.

As we shift to the framework of carbon

neutrality, we have expanded the scope to include all

sources, which means emissions from the natural and

working lands and all sinks.

The circle shown on this slide represents

California's greenhouse gas emissions from AB 32 inventory

sources, which we continue to ratchet down through air

quality and climate policy. Carbon capture and

sequestration can also be applied to large emitters of

carbon dioxide to mitigate emissions.

Natural and working lands can be a net GHG source

or sink, as indicated by the plus and minus signs. The

state's separate natural and working lands inventory

allows us to track the GHG emissions and sequestration on

natural and working lands over time.

Beyond nature-based solutions, there are

technological carbon dioxide removal options, such as

direct air capture of CO2 coupled with permanent

underground storage of CO2 that can remove emissions from

the ambient air.

Once we have a sense of GHG emission mitigation

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

173

from our sources and the potential role of our natural and

working lands, we can begin to think about how to

compensate for any remaining emissions in order to reach

carbon neutrality. The initial modeling results I'm

presenting today were first shown at a public workshop

last week. There may be slight adjustments to these

results in the Draft Scoping Plan.

First, I'll present the AB 32 sources scenarios

followed by the natural and working lands scenarios.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: In addition to

a reference, or business-as-usual scenario, we modeled

four draft energy and technology scenarios. Two of the

scenarios achieve carbon neutrality by 2035 and two by

2045.

Alternative 1 nearly phases out fossil and

biomass combustion completely across the economy. This

alternative includes limited engineered carbon removal to

achieve carbon neutrality by 2035. This alternative

includes ambitious innovation in electric technology and

aggressive consumer adoption trends.

Alternative 2 implements a full suite of

technology options, including engineered carbon removal at

a rapid pace, in order to reduce emissions as much as

possible and achieve carbon neutrality by 2035.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

174

Alternative 3 uses a broad portfolio of existing

and emerging fossil fuel alternatives and includes

achievement of Executive Order N-79-20, eliminating

internal combustion engines throughout the transportation

sector as much as possible.

Alternative 4 relies on existing and some

emerging technologies with slower deployment and consumer

acceptance rates. It reflects a higher reliance on carbon

dioxide capture and removal technologies to achieve carbon

neutrality by 2045 then alternative three.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Transitioning

or economy away from fossil fuels is truly a

transformation of our energy system, and this is evident

in all four alternatives. Electrification is a

cornerstone of each alternative. The speed at which we

need to expand zero carbon electricity capacity is

unprecedented. For example, building the necessary solar

capacity estimated for each alternative exceeds our recent

annual installation rate of 2.7 gigawatts. Similarly, the

battery capacity additions needed each year greatly

exceeds the historic rate of 0.3 gigawatts.

All of the alternatives include a transition from

gasoline or diesel-powered vehicles to zero-emission

vehicles over time. Because Alternative 1 eliminates

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

175

combustion by 2035, this means that millions of vehicles

will need to be retired early. For example, 16 million

light-duty vehicles and 1.4 million medium- and heavy-duty

vehicles would be removed from California's roads by 2035.

For context, the U.S. Cash for Clunkers Program

implemented a few years ago cost $3 billion and retired

690,000 vehicles. Early vehicle retirement is largely

avoided in the other alternatives by allowing an

end-of-life transition, but it -- this extends the need

for liquid petroleum fuel.

Similarly, eliminating combustion in homes by

2035 in Alternative 1 requires early retirement of

millions of gas appliances to be replaced with electric

appliances. Again, Alternatives 2, 3, and 4 retain

natural gas supply to allow this transition to electric

appliances to occur as the gas appliances reach their end

of life.

In addition to the electricity -- or in addition

to electricity, hydrogen becomes a primary alternative

fuel for the transportation sector. The quantity of

hydrogen needed in each of the alternatives to supply

California's projected demand is significant and it will

also need to be provided by low-carbon sources.

One approach to creating hydrogen involves

electrolysis. If all of the hydrogen needed in each

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

176

alternative was produced with solar-powered electrolysis,

we would need an additional 31 to 47 gigawatts of solar

capacity. This level of solar-powered electrolysis

represents about 40 to 50 percent of our current electric

generation capacity.

The need for petroleum refining in California

declines as fewer and fewer internal combustion engine

vehicles remain. As I mentioned, all ICE vehicles are

retired by 2035 in Alternative 1, therefore refining

operations cease.

Alternative 2 accelerates ZEV adoption equally

fast without early retirements of vehicles resulting in 25

percent of today's refining capacity remaining in 2035 and

eight percent remaining in 2045.

Alternative 4 has the slowest ZEV adoption rate,

and therefore retains the most refining capacity of the

four alternatives.

To reduce remaining combustion emissions in each

alternative, we apply carbon capture and sequestration

technology to high temperature industrial operations like

cement and to refineries. In Alternative 1, industrial

combustion emissions captured with CCS are less than one

million metric ton per year. In the other alternatives,

CCS is applied to refineries along with some industrial

plants. The quantity of CCS needed is related to the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

177

quantity of refining capacity remaining. CCS related to

dispatchable power for grid reliance and for producing

renewable hydrogen with biogas is not included in this

slide.

Finally, after all of the direct emissions

reductions we envision for the four alternatives, there

are residual emissions. Even Alternative 1, which nearly

eliminates combustion of fossil fuels, still has residual

non-combustion emissions like methane. The quantity of

residual emissions in each scenario is related to the pace

at which fossil fuels are shifted to alternative energy

sources.

In Alternative 1, the transition to ZEVs and

electric appliances is aggressive, but it's not complete

in 2035. To reach carbon neutrality would require over a

hundred million metric tons of carbon removal from the

atmosphere. Because Alternative 3 and 4 target carbon

neutrality by 2045, there are no residual emissions to

compensate in 2035, but residual emissions remain in 2045.

Moreover, if we did not pursue CCS on the large emitters,

more carbon dioxide removal would be needed to capture

those emissions from the ambient air.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Reliance on

fossil fuels is drastically reduced in all four

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

178

alternatives as shown in this traffic. The brown, blue,

and black colors reflect fossil fuel energy demand in 2020

on the left compared to each of the four alternatives in

2035 and 2045.

Alternative 1 nearly eliminates fossil fuel

energy demand in 2035 by phasing out combustion in

vehicles, homes, buildings, and most industrial

applications.

Alternatives 2, 3, and 4 allow the transition

away from fossil fuels to occur at a pace based on

end-of-life replacement of equipment or phased

transition -- transition to alternative fuels.

Hydrogen, biofuels, and biomethane use grows to

provide energy for hard-to-decarbonize sectors like

aviation and high temperature industrial processes.

Electricity, which is not shown on this figure, becomes

the primary energy source. And reducing fossil fuel

supply of electricity is a key aspect of each alternative.

The next slides show how this transition away

from fossil fuels is completed in each -- is accomplished

in each sector.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Liquid

petroleum fuels, gasoline and diesel shown in brown, are

the primary source of energy for transportation today.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

179

Each of the alternatives ramps up sales of zero-emission

vehicles that rely on electricity and hydrogen, shown in

light blue and pink, and expand reliance on biofuels to

reduce demand for petroleum.

The overall energy demand for transportation is

reduced in the near term, along with reductions in vehicle

miles traveled, or VMT. Efficiency gains from electric

drivetrains, compared to internal combustion engines, also

contribute to lower overall energy demands.

Alternative 1 phases out combustion in 2035 with

early retirement to millions of internal combustion engine

vehicles, such that only ZEVs are on the road.

Alternatives 2, 3, and 4 replace vehicles at end of life

resulting in continued dependence on liquid petroleum

fuels or biofuels as the transition proceeds.

The year in which 100 percent of vehicle sales

are ZEVs dictates the pace of the transition and the level

of remaining petroleum demand in 2045. Reaching 100

percent ZEV sales earlier results in less demand for

petroleum later.

The fossil fuel combustion reductions included in

all of these alternatives will significantly reduce the

concentration of combustion-associated air pollutants

throughout the state. For example, Alternative 3 achieves

the Governor's Executive Order to eliminate internal

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

180

combustion engines throughout the transportation sector as

much as possible.

Liquid biofuels, particularly directed toward

production of sustainable aviation fuel, provide energy

for aviation, rail, and other end uses that are difficult

to electrify.

Biomethane transitions to other sectors, but

continues to play a limited role as a transportation fuel.

The use of biofuels is restricted in Alternative 1 in

concert with minimizing fuel combustion, and it is

expanded in Alternative 4, which has the slowest pace of

ZEV adoption.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: The number of

light-duty ZEVs on California's roads needs to grow

dramatically over the coming decades to achieve the

reductions in petroleum demand in each of the

alternatives. There are about 29 million

internal-combustion-engine LDRs on our roads today and

approximately one million ZEVs.

The steep increase in number of ZEVs in the

yellow line for Alternative 1 reflects the phaseout of

combustion and early retirement of vehicles, such that the

entire population of LDVs are ZEVs by 2035.

Alternative 2, 3, and 4 steadily increase the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

181

number of ZEVs relative to the BAU reference. The BAU

reference reflects a case where no additional policies or

incentives accelerate the ZEV adoption.

The Governor's Executive Order for 100 percent

sales of ZEVs by 2035, in the green line for Alternative

3, leads to 11 million ZEVs by 2035. This means that

there will still be millions of light-duty vehicles that

depend on gasoline in 2035.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Most of the

gasoline and diesel consumed by vehicles in California is

refined in California, and California produces a

substantial portion of the fuel refined in the State. The

demand for petroleum fuel is directly related to the

number of vehicles that continue to rely on gasoline and

diesel. As the number of ZEVs increase, the demand for

petroleum and the associated greenhouse gas emissions

decrease.

With the phaseout of combustion by 2035 in

Alternative 1, emissions from oil and gas extraction and

from petroleum refining drop to zero.

For the other alternatives, extraction emissions

decline over time as the demand for petroleum fuel drops

and the number of ZEVs grows. Alternative 3 includes a

planned phaseout of extraction operations by 2045. The

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

182

portion of crude oil needed to meet remaining demand in

2045 would need to be imported.

Refining GHG emissions also decline over time,

along with decreased demand for petroleum fuel for

Alternatives 2, 3, and 4, as shown in the dotted lines in

the figure on the right. The addition of carbon capture

and sequestration technologies to refining operations by

2030 substantially reduces refining emissions in the near

term as shown in the solid lines.

Emissions continue to decrease after CCS

installation as refining production tracks the reduced

demand for petroleum. If we decouple petroleum production

from demand and ratchet down on the supply more

aggressively, we would need to import petroleum to meet

in-state demand. This situation would be leakage for the

sector.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Fossil fuels

used in California's industrial sector are primarily

natural gas and other fossil gases used in refining

operations. Each of the alternatives represents a

transition of industrial operations to equipment powered

by electricity, hydrogen, or biofuels to reduce demand for

natural gas. Blending hydrogen and biomethane into the

pipeline -- pipeline, also displaces fossil natural gas.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

183

The overall energy demand for industrial

activities is reduced primarily as refining operations

decrease, but efficiency gains from electrification and

operational improvements also contribute to reduced energy

demand.

Electricity is a suitable alternative for

industrial processes that require low-temperature heat,

but it may be a more expensive or technically challenging

alternative to provide medium and high temperatures for

industries like cement, steel, and glass.

Hydrogen combustion, through dedicated pipelines

to serve industrial clusters and blended into the pipeline

with natural gas, can provide higher temperature heat

where on-site combustion may be needed. All four

alternatives assume that CCS is used to capture combustion

emissions from cement plants that continue to rely on

fossil fuel sources.

The pace at which industrial applications are

transitioned to electricity or to equipment designed for

hydrogen combustion varies across each alternative.

Alternative 1 relies almost completely on electricity to

meet industrial energy needs to reduce combustion.

Alternatives 2, 3, and 4 achieve different levels

of electrification and conversion to equipment for

hydrogen combustion to reduce reliance on natural gas.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

184

Alternative 4 retains the most legacy equipment that uses

natural gas.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Natural gas is

also the primary fossil fuel used for space and water

heating, cooking, and clothes driving in our homes and

businesses. Each of the alternatives ramps up sales of

electric appliances to reduce demand for natural gas.

Blending hydrogen and biomethane in the pipeline also

displaces natural gas consumption in buildings.

Across all alternatives, overall energy demand is

reduced with efficiency gains from electric heat pumps and

tradition energy efficiency measures. Phasing you

combustion by 2035 in Alternative 1 leads to early

retirement of millions of gas appliances. Alternative 2,

3, and 4 replace appliances at end of life resulting in

continued dependence on natural gas as the transition

proceeds. By 2045, about 90 percent of the building

energy demand is electrified in Alternatives, 2, 3 and 4.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Electricity is

the primary alternative to fossil fuels currently used in

transportation buildings and many industrial activities.

While California has actively reduced dependence on fossil

fuel for electricity generation over the past decade.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

185

Fossil fuels, primarily natural gas, still supply about 45

percent of electricity generation serving California.

Electricity sector modeling for the Scoping Plan

alternative aligned with previous work done by E3, CARB,

and the State's energy agencies under SB 100. SB 100 aims

to achieve 60 percent renewable electricity generation by

2030 and 100 percent renewable and zero carbon retail

sales by 2045, which will be accomplished by installing

record levels of solar and wind generation each year.

Even with this increase in renewable generation,

reliability concerns require some amount of electricity

generation that can be cycled on and off as needed from

gas generation. Alternative 1 nearly eliminates

combustion in electricity production through reliance on

hydrogen fuel cells combined with renewable electricity

generation. Electric loads increase about 80 percent

relative to today to accommodate the sharp increase in

demand to supply the ZEVs, electric appliances, and

industrial demand.

Alterantives 2, 3, and 4 include a broader range

of technology options to produce zero carbon electricity

to meet retail sales while meeting system constraints.

Load growth is slower in these alternatives, but it still

increases 60 to 80 percent relative to today by 2045.

It's important to note that additional electricity

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

186

generation beyond what is shown here is likely needed to

produce hydrogen or support direct air capture of carbon

dioxide.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Greenhouse gas

emissions don't only originate with combustion of fossil

fuel. Methane, hydrofluorocarbons, or HFCs, and other

greenhouse gases contribute to climate change. These

non-combustion emissions are particularly challenging to

reduce, and in many cases cannot be eliminated.

Methane emissions are reduced in line with the SB

1383 target by 2030 in all four alternatives with

continued reductions through 2045. The four alternatives

employed different strategies to arrive at the same level

of methane reduction by 2030. Organic waste, shown in

green, is diverted from landfills and converted to fuel at

the same level in all scenarios.

Fugitive emissions from oil and gas operations

and pipelines are essentially eliminated in Alternative 1

as the gas grid is retired and oil and gas extraction

phase out. In Alternatives 2 and 3, additional reductions

exceed those anticipated by the current oil and gas

regulation.

Methane emissions from dairy and livestock

operations are addressed with different strategies in each

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

187

alternative, balancing energy production from methane

captured, manure management, enteric emissions, and herd

size reductions in excess of historic levels. Alternative

1 emphasizes manure management, herd size reduction rates,

and enteric emission mitigation, while Alternative 2

relies most heavily on methane captured for energy

production.

There is an opportunity to introduce low global

warming potential refrigerants as building retrofits and

newly constructed buildings transition to electric

appliances, although this may have high costs.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: The modeling

results show that even after we transition to alternative

fuels, there will be residual emissions in all four

alternatives. These emissions are primarily associated

with methane in the agriculture sector, combustion

emissions remaining in the electricity and industrial

sectors, transportation fuels to meet remaining demand

from internal combustion engine vehicles, and high global

warming potential HFCs.

In order to achieve carbon neutrality, these

residual emissions must be compensated, by carbon dioxide

removal from the atmosphere to get to zero emissions. To

be clear, we are modeling scenarios that first push on

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

188

clean fuels and technology and carbon dioxide removal is

second in that loading order. The extent to which we will

need CDR depends on how successful we are at building

clean energy production and infrastructure and how quickly

we deploy clean technology.

As noted earlier, there are two approaches to

carbon dioxide removal, nature-based solutions and

technological carbon dioxide removal. I will share the

results of our natural and working lands assessment of

carbon emissions and sequestration next. However, we do

find that both nature-based and technological carbon

dioxide approaches will be necessary for California to

achieve carbon neutrality no later than 2045.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Recognizing the

importance of the State's lands for our climate efforts,

Governor Newsom issued an Executive Order in October 2020

directing CARB to include a target for natural and working

lands in support of carbon neutrality as a part of this

Scoping Plan.

Natural and working lands has been a part of

California's Scoping Plan since the first one in 2008. At

that time, however, only forests were considered and only

one study was used to identify the five million metric ton

carbon sequestration rate goal.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

189

The next Scoping Plan called for a more thorough

look at forest lands, which resulted in California's

forest carbon plan. The forest carbon plan did not set

any carbon targets, but it does provide a lot of valuable

information on actions and mechanisms that California can

use within forests.

The 2017 Scoping Plan update took the next step

towards developing a comprehensive natural and working

lands carbon target. After the 2017 Scoping Plan was

adopted, CARB, along with the California Department of

Food and Agriculture and the California Natural Resources

Agency, developed the draft Natural and Working Lands

Implementation Plan.

Through this effort, it was calculated that

California could reduce emissions from natural and working

lands by 15 to 20 million metrics tons of carbon -- of CO2

equivalent per year by 2030.

Now, as we look to achieving carbon neutrality no

later than 2045 and seek to better understand both the

potential emissions and emission reductions possible from

natural and working lands, we have undertaken the most

advanced modeling for natural and working lands to date.

This is really groundbreaking work and the first

time this level of assessment of natural and working lands

has been undertaken by any government for identifying

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

190

carbon targets and climate goals

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Just as on the

industry and energy side, CARB staff have modeled a

business-as-usual scenario, as well as four alternative

scenarios with different levels of climate action for

natural and working lands. In this case, climate action

refers to different levels of forest management and fuels

reduction, regenerative agricultural practices, urban tree

canopy expansion, and a whole host of other actions we can

take to address climate change.

These scenarios reflect the input we have

received from stakeholders and the public, as well as

working with our agency partners and span a wide range of

potential levels of action. Each scenario has an

overarching objective that informs the level of

management.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: For this

assessment, we are trying to model every major carbon pool

and ecosystem in the state of California. This is a list

of the ecosystems that we were able to include in our

modeling and the models associated with that assessment.

No single model can simulate all of the dynamics

that we are interested in for all of the land types, and

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

191

so you can see that we used a wide assortment of different

models. This is because each ecosystem has very different

ecological, biological, and other dynamics that require

special consideration.

For each land type, we used these models to

simulate the effect of varying levels of climate action

that we identified in consideration of and consultation

with the public and our agency partners.

For forests, shrublands and grasslands for

example, we were particularly interested in being able to

quantify the GHG emissions from wildfire, and so we chose

a model that allows us to estimate potential fire

emissions on these landscapes. We also wanted to

understand how various levels of management would impact

fire emissions, and so we ran scenarios with a range of

land management intensities.

We conducted a similar analysis across each

landscape assessing the carbon and GHG benefits of

different levels of management actions for wetlands, urban

forestry, croplands, and deserts.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Now, I will

show a few example results from our natural and working

lands modeling. Displayed are the results for the carbon

stock within annual cropland soil. This graph is of

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

192

carbon stock, not emissions. So a positive trend means

that more carbon is getting stored in soil.

For agriculture, for Scenario 1, we modeled the

impact of applying the maximum rate of healthy soils

practices physically possible as quantified by CDFA, as

well as achieving 30 percent of total agriculture in

annual croplands being organic by 2045.

Then the other scenarios have a tiered-down

approach to quantify the impacts of varying levels of

action. And to add some context, Scenario 1 represents a

10X increase in healthy soils practices from current

levels.

You can see here that in the business-as-usual

scenario, which includes no healthy soils practices,

annual croplands will be net emitters into the future.

However, our results indicate that with aggressive climate

action, these lands can sequester carbon over the long

run.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: This slide

again represents annual croplands. However, this graph

shows emissions when N2O emissions are also taken into

account. In this graph, values below the zero line mean

increasing annual emissions. This graph shows that even

though in some scenarios annual croplands can sequester

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

193

carbon into their soils when N2O emissions are taken into

account, croplands are net emitters of CO2e.

However, with climate action and regenerative

agricultural practices, these emissions can be reduced and

the curve can be bent towards carbon neutrality.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: This slide

shows the results of forest modeling. Forests hold 85

percent of the state's natural and working lands carbon

stock or existing carbon and is by far the largest carbon

pool in the state. For this reason, the modeling done to

assess forests is our most advanced natural and working

lands modeling efforts. This modeling dynamically

includes wildfires, drought impacts, management effects,

and hydrology. This graph shows carbon stocks above and

below ground as well as within harvested wood products

carbon pools. Negative trends indicate decreasing carbon

within the system and increasing emissions of carbon into

the atmosphere.

For the forest sector, we modeled the impact of

no further management after 2025 in Scenario 1, so that is

to say what if we no longer cut or intentionally burn any

trees, shrubs, or grasses anymore. We have not -- we have

also modeled the future impact of business as usual, which

is about 250,000 acres of forest management per year, as

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

194

well as modeling 1 million, 2.5 million, and 5 million

acres of management per year. For context, the State's

current policy objectives is to treat 1 million acres

annually.

Modeling results showed that under all scenarios,

forests will be net emitters into the future. However,

with increasing management and fuels reduction, we can

reduce our wildfire emissions while not substantially

impacting our carbon stock. Reducing wildfire emissions

in California will have significant benefits, particularly

in terms of air quality and health.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: As part of the

Scoping Plan, CARB staff conducted a meta-analysis and

literature review to catalogue and quantify what previous

research has identified as the future of California's

natural and working lands carbon.

This graph shows the combined results from CARB's

Scoping Plan modeling laid on top of the results of this

meta-analysis and alongside the natural and working lands

inventory trend line. You can see that previous research

indicates a probable decrease of carbon stocks into the

future. The CARB natural and working lands carbon

inventory indicates that we are currently on the low end

of that trajectory. And CARB's Scoping Plan modeling just

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

195

presented is in line with previous research in indicating

a probable decrease in carbon stocks going into the

future. However, even though under all scenarios, natural

and working lands modeling indicates decreased carbon

stocks, management can increase carbon stocks from the BAU

trajectory, reduce GHG emissions from lands, and improve

ecosystem and public health.

We also know that uncertainty exists about future

climate and the impacts that it may have on our ecosystem,

so it is important that the State take decisive and

aggressive action to improve and diversify ecosystem

structures and management. Modeling and collaborative

work we have done with our sister agencies highlight the

importance of increasing the pace and scale of natural and

working land actions to ensure that our ecosystems are

equipped to withstand future climate change and that they

continue to provide the services that both nature and

society depend upon for survival.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: As we go about

assessing the contribution of natural and working lands to

carbon neutrality, we must not only look at long-term

trends, but on short-term sequestration and emission

rates. This graph shows five-year moving averages at 2

different a time slices for each scenario for the lands

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

196

and actions we modeled. Additionally, this graph shows

the relative contribution of each land type to the overall

sequestration or emissions rate.

In this graph, negative values represent

emissions, while positive values represent sinks of

carbon. First, you can see that in 2035 our modeling

indicates an overall source of emissions for most

scenarios. While in 2045, all scenarios are sinks. This

demonstrates natural variability within the sector.

You can also see in this graph that forests play

the dominant role in determining the contribution that

natural and working lands can have on carbon neutrality,

followed by shrublands. This indicates the need for more

climate action in these lands especially to help us

achieve carbon neutrality over both the short and long

term.

There are also a number of landscapes and actions

for which the GHG benefits increase as we increase action.

The modeling shows that we can achieve more carbon

benefits and GHG reductions as we scale up wetland

restoration, healthy soils practices, organic farming,

urban forestry, and land protections.

It is important to remember, however, that carbon

is not the only aspect to consider when identifying how

well a scenario performs under climate change. So as you

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

197

look at these scenarios keep in mind that even though a

scenario might have a high sequestration rate, at a given

time, it may also have high wildfire emissions and worse

public health outcomes.

Finally, we know that the ability of natural and

working lands to support carbon neutrality goes beyond the

specific lands and management actions we modeled here, and

that there are additional strategies that can provide more

carbon sequestration and GHG reductions than what we have

shown here.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: In summary, we

find that it is possible to drastically reduce fossil fuel

combustion, which will lead to air quality and GHG

benefits. This can be accomplished with aggressive action

in every sector to introduce alternative fuels and

technologies.

Even after all the direct emissions are

quantified residual emissions persist, primarily from

short-lived climate pollutants. Achieving this

transformation of our energy supply and infrastructure

will require unprecedented rates of deployment. This will

impact planning and operations in multiple sectors, as

well as require significant coordination across agencies

and levels of government on actions such as permitting.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

198

Alternative fuels and technologies are available

today, but they are somewhat limited in number. It will

be important to keep clean energy options open.

On the natural and working lands side, our

assessment indicates that decisive and aggressive climate

action is needed to improve ecosystem climate resilience.

Improved ecosystem climate resilience protects ecosystems

against future climate change disruption, ensures their

provision of services to nature and society, and protects

communities from the negative impacts of climate change.

High levels of actions on forests can decrease

wildfire risks and improve forest health and our modeling

indicates that this can be accomplished without

substantially negatively impacting carbon stock.

Additionally, increasing actions on other lands

can improve carbon storage and reduce emissions from those

sectors. In some land types, emissions benefits from

climate action can occur faster than others. For example,

avoiding land conversion away from natural and working

systems can immediately preserve that carbon, reducing

fertilizer application, or restoring wetlands can have

immediate emissions reductions. However, other systems

require time for climate benefits to build upon

themselves, such as action within forests.

--o0o--

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

199

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: In the

following slides, I'll touch briefly on some of the work

the EJ Advisory Committee is doing to inform the Scoping

Plan. The Committee has been meeting twice a month and

will continue to contribute multi-day monthly efforts

through the end of the Scoping Plan process.

One joint meeting between the Committee and the

Board was held earlier this month to discuss the

Committee's draft recommendations, and another joint

meeting is schedule in September. The EJ Advisory

Committee will use their regular meetings to gather

information and obtain technical support.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: The Committee

continues to meet in work groups on specific topics in

order to inform their recommendations. At Board meetings

and public Scoping Plan workshops, the EJ Advisory

Committee members are invited to share perspectives after

staff presentations. In the event of a workshop with

panel speakers, Committee members are invited to

participate on a panel.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: EJ Advisory

Committee Members engage local communities through events

supported by CARB. These community workshops are intended

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

200

to inform Scoping Plan recommendations. These community

engagement events are supported with CARB funding and

logistical support.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: One example of

a community engagement workshop occurred in February,

hosted by the San Joaquin Valley EJ Advisory Committee

members. Over 100 participants joined the virtual meeting

to share ideas and priorities.

The next events are planned for May.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: We are

conducting a number of analyses to evaluate the

alternative scenarios. Now that we have these

alternatives scenarios that illustrate how we might use

energy in the future, we can begin to evaluate the impacts

of achieving that transition away from fossil fuels. The

characteristics in each of alter -- of these alternatives

will result in different health and economic outcomes. We

are beginning similar evaluations of the land management

strategy scenarios as well.

We will explore cost of policies, the social cost

of carbon, and estimated air quality benefits as required

by AB 197. In addition, we will evaluate public health,

economic, and environmental aspects of the Scoping Plan

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

201

alternatives.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: There are many

activities slated for the next two months in preparation

for release of the Draft Scoping Plan. In April, there

will be a public workshop with air quality, public health,

and economic modeling results. We are also planning a

transportation sector focused workshop. In May, we plan

to release the Draft Scoping Plan for public comment, and

in June we will present the Draft Scoping Plan to the

Board. The Board may provide additional direction to CARB

staff to inform the Final Scoping Plan.

The Environmental Justice Advisory Committee

continues to meet regularly. Community meetings are being

scheduled to seek input and provide information on how

community members can influence the Scoping Plan.

Based on Board direction, additional workshops,

EJ Advisory Committee meetings and public input, updated

modeling will be conducted this summer in preparation for

assembling the proposed Final Scoping Plan.

--o0o--

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: In terms of the

overall schedule, staff will present the Draft Scoping

Plan to the Board in June. There will be another joint

EJAC Board meeting around September and staff is targeting

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

202

bringing the proposed Final Scoping Plan to the Board for

adoption by the end of 2022.

Chair Randolph, that in -- that concludes the

staff presentation. Before inviting guest speakers, does

the Board have any questions.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Not at this time. Why don't you

go ahead and invite the guest speakers.

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Okay. Our

first invited speaker is Jared Blumenfeld, California

Secretary of Environmental Protection.

Secretary Blumenfeld.

CALEPA SECRETARY BLUMENFELD: Hey. Appreciate

the opportunity, yeah. So just for the record, my name is

Jared Blumenfeld and I serve as the Secretary of

California's EPA. And Chair Randolph and CARB Board

members, it's a distinct privilege to be with you today to

help kick-off the discussions on the modeling for the 2022

Scoping Plan.

As you each know, we live in extremely

challenging times. And when I think of the things that

I'm most excited about, the Scoping Plan process rises to

the top. The reason it gives me hope is because it

proposes pathways out of the darkness, it's intentional,

it's based on community voices and science, and we're not

waiting to solve the planet's largest crisis. We're

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

203

meeting the moment with the urgency it demands. And like

cartographers of yesteryear we're charting a course past

the horizon's edge.

I want to start by thanking Richard Corey and

Rajinder Sahota, who, withe their incredible teams at CARB

and the contracting folks we just heard from, have created

this multi-faceted three-dimensional decision support

tool. This endeavor has required CARB and many others

working countless weekends and late nights, and is really

important to me that we acknowledge the people and

government who are truly making a difference.

We're not going to solve the climate crisis

without solving the crisis of inequality plaguing

California and the planet. By achieving a quality of

opportunity, a quality of the fundamental right to breathe

clean air, drink clean water, and live on land

uncontaminated by toxic chemicals, we will have the

foundation upon which the solutions we see can be

implemented.

Before we can be trusted as a partner of

communities, we must evidence our ability to listen

empathize and develop new models of power sharing. And

I'm so grateful to the EJAC for your work as a catalyst of

paradigm change.

I know I personally can be exhaustingly slow to

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

204

understand, slow, and even uncomfortable to shift my

perspectives so that I can even meet you halfway. And

yet, together we have all come a long way. Together, we

also have a long way to go, but together we're stronger

against the forces that want to keep polluting our

communities.

With this Scoping Plan, I will be focused on the

key actions that will make the most difference for the

greatest number of vulnerable Californians.

We all want the Scoping Plan to be everything it

can be, but it's also important to define what it is not.

The Scoping Plan will not prescribe specific policies,

actions, or funding decisions. The Scoping Plan is the

beginning not the end of the a process. The Scoping Plan

will require regulations, and laws, and Executive Orders,

and significant funding to bring it to life. All those

processes will engage the public and be informed by new

innovations, changing realities on the ground, and by

everyone's ideas.

The scale of the opportunity and the scale of the

challenge is staggering. There are a few things that

stand out for me from the modeling. First of all, the

scenarios modeled drastically reduce our dependence on

fossil fuels. As Governor Newsom said in this year's

State of the State quote, "Drilling even more oil only

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

205

leads to even more extreme weather, more extreme drought,

more wildfire. Our nation-leading climate investments

this year's budget proposes 38 billion will ensure that

other innovations will surely follow". He continued, "By

not recreating the 20th century by extraction more oil but

extracting new ideas, drilling for new talent, by running

our economy on a carbon-free engine".

Secondly, getting to our 2030 and carbon

neutrality targets will not be easy. Every single sector

and subsector will have to make major reductions and/or

increase carbon sequestration. At the same time, every

single sector must be part of the solution. And with a

concerted effort, as we just heard, on natural and working

lands, we'll have fewer emissions and sequester more

carbon than today.

Our energy and industrial sectors will similarly

drive down their emissions. There are, as we know, no

silver bullets in achieving these targets. There's no one

sector or one action that can do it alone.

Another key takeaway from the modeling is that no

matter what we do to drive down combustion, in every

scenario some emissions will persist in 2045. As a

result, this is not the time to take any tools off the

table. I'm committed to working with all of you in

developing principles that help us effectively and safely

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

206

deploy new carbon reduction technologies, such as CCS and

direct air capture.

California is a leader when it comes to

innovation and we will continue to invest in technological

development. As you new carbon reduction strategies and

technologies come online, they will be taken into account

when the Scoping Plan is updated in 2027.

I'm glad that Julie Henderson, Director of the

Department of Pesticide Regulation is also providing

remarks today. Accelerating a system-wide transition to

safer more sustainable ways to manage pests and

strengthening the State's pesticide use enforcement are

top priorities for this administration. Julie's

department is leading the change on both better protecting

public health and the environment, particularly in our

most vulnerable communities.

I've heard calls during these meetings for

pesticides to be included in the Scoping Plan. However,

as of now, we don't have evidence that pesticides are an

important source of GHG emissions and we must continue to

focus the Scoping Plan on its purpose, charting our path

to carbon neutrality -- neutrality and assessing our

progress towards our 2030 goals.

To those who argue that more research is needed

on the connection between pesticides and GHG emissions, I

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

207

agree with you, and I'd note that CARB, DPR, and sister

agencies alike will be working on research on this

subject. I also want to acknowledge the incredibly

critical role that other government agencies within

California are playing on developing the Scoping Plan,

from the California Public Utilities Commission, to the

Natural Resources Agency, to C -- to the California Energy

Commission, to GovOps, to the California Department of

Food and Agriculture. Karen Ross, the Secretary, is here

today. All these, and many, many more, led in the

Governor's office by the Governor's Senior Policy Advisor

on Climate, Lauren Sanchez, are coordinating a very, very

large and complex interagency collaboration. And the

number of hours that we can look at our CARB employees and

CARB Board members is being extrapolated out through

government agencies. This really is an all-of-government

approach.

Once it's completed, the task of implementing the

Scoping Plan will require all of us working together. We

must act decisively with courage and urgency, so that

communities, ecosystems, and our economy are protected

from the worst impacts of climate change, while building a

more just and equitable society.

I really appreciate the opportunity to be here

with you today and I'm looking forward to the discussion.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

208

Thank you.

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Next. We would

like to invite Virginia Jameson, Deputy Secretary for

Climate and Working Lands at the -- of the California

Department of Food and Agriculture.

Deputy Secretary Jameson.

CDFA DEPUTY SECRETARY JAMESON: Thank you very

much having me. Hi. My name is Virginia Jameson. And

sorry, Secretary Blumenfeld, you're stuck with me today.

Secretary Ross had a conflict.

But thank you. We are grateful to the Air

Resources Board's staff for this first crack at difficult

modeling in the natural and working lands sector and being

so collaborative with CDFA, and Natural Resources Agency

staff throughout the process.

Achieving carbon neutrality is an incredible but

necessary challenge. As Secretary Blumenfeld mentioned,

we know that we will have -- need to have all sectors

contribute to our emissions reductions. We are already

seek the impacts of climate change, particularly during

the current climate change induced drought, which is

having such a devastating impact on our farms, ranches,

and environment.

The Scoping Plan models we saw today drive home

the message that active management of our landscapes for

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

209

climate benefits is vital and that there's significant

opportunity for soils and other Climate Smart land

management practices to support California's climate

change goals, and that we will need to increase our

efforts toward measuring, monitoring, and verifying our

efforts to ensure progress.

Fortunately, many of our State agencies,

including CDFA, have been developing programs and

initiatives that seek to bolster our natural and working

lands as carbon sinks, such as our Healthy Soils Program.

We stand at the ready to ramp up our deployment of these

efforts and we are confident that our lands are part of

the solution.

We've also seen a lot of leadership from our

agricultural sector. Last January, we held a series of

workshops where we received countless ideas climate

actions, what we -- which we put together in a report

called, "Farmer- and Rancher-Led Climate Change

Solutions". These are the folks who are experiencing the

impacts of climate change on a daily basis and they're

also leading the charge to mitigate its impacts and come

up with adaptation and resilient strategies.

As the staff presentation also highlighted, we

know that there's still a ways to go to meet the methane

targets called for in statute, but we're making progress

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

210

now by deploying digesters and other manure management

practices in California that have a proven track record of

success.

We are proud that California has the most

ambitious methane reduction goal in the world and our

dairy families are important partners in making those

reductions. Additionally, there are many co-benefits

associated with Climate Smart agricultural practices, like

improving soil water holding capacity, improving air

quality, and increasing yields that will not only continue

to produce nutritious foods for the nation and the world,

but will also make us more resilient to climate change

into the future.

In closing, we look forward working with the Air

Resources Board and our stakeholders as we continue to

pursue these opportunities and to participating in future

modeling activities together.

Thank you.

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Now, Julie

Henderson, the Director of Department of Pesticide

Regulation will make some remarks.

DPR DIRECTOR HENDERSON: Good afternoon. My name

is Julie Henderson and I'm the Director the Department of

Pesticide Regulation. I've been in this role since July

of last year, first in an acting capacity and then

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

211

appointed in December.

Before that, I was Deputy Secretary for Public

Policy at CalEPA. Thanks very much for inviting me to

join you today to share information about the actions

we're taking to reduce the use of hazardous pesticides and

to strengthen our enforcement efforts to better protect

the health of all Californians and our environment.

Equity and environmental justice and engaging

meaningfully with communities most impacted by pesticide

use are central to our work. And our ongoing

collaboration with CARB, CalEPA, CDFA, and our other

sister agencies provides critical input and support.

I'll start with some quick background on our

mission. DPR is responsible for regulating the use of

pesticides in California in agricultural and

non-agricultural settings, so that their use is safe and

avoids harm to communities, workers, and the environment.

We scientifically evaluate all pesticides to assess their

potential health and environmental risks prior to

registration and use in California, and we continue to

evaluate those risks after registration. We oversee

statewide enforcement of pesticide laws that are enforced

locally by the State's 55 county agriculture

commissioners, and we're seeking additional funding in

this year's budget to strengthen those efforts.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

212

In addition to your regulatory role, we're

responsible for fostering and accelerating the use of

safer and more sustainable ways of managing pests to

better protect public health, workers, and the

environment. This is our direction for the future and it

requires a system-wide approach that engages all

stakeholders with that focus.

So together with CalEPA and CDFA, we convened the

Sustainable Pesticide Management Work Group last year to

recommend pathways and ambitious, targeted, measurable

goals to support and accelerate the system-wide

transition. We anticipate draft comments from the work

group this spring. The work group includes 26 members

from diverse backgrounds including community and tribal

representatives, who bring environmental, social justice,

and farmworker perspectives, conventional and organic

growers, and other representatives from across the

agricultural industry, university researchers, and public

health experts, and government representatives.

Effecting this system-wide change will not be

easy and it will take time, but it's critical. It will

require alternative pest management tools and practices.

It will require research to develop those tools. It will

require outreach and education to support farmers of all

sizes moving to more knowledge-intensive, regional, and

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

213

crop-specific practices that focus on long-term prevention

of pests and the use of the least toxic effective methods

to control them and it will also require incentives to

take risks to move to a new system of operate.

We're collaborating closely with the CARB,

CalEPA, CDFA, and the Natural Resources Agency to connect

the work group's goals and recommendations to the State's

natural and working lands, Climate Smart, and Healthy

Soils strategies, and to identify multi-benefit solutions

that address pesticide, air, climate, and water risks.

We're also working together on research related to

connections between pesticides, and healthy soils, and

greenhouse gas emissions.

In addition, with supplemental one-time funding

this year, we'll be administering five and a half million

dollars in integrated pest management research grants to

incentivize innovation and outreach and education grants

to promote and expand the adoption of integrated best

management practices.

I want to go back to the topic of our equity and

environmental justice work that I mentioned as core to our

mission. We're working closely with AB 617 community

steering committees, CARB, OEHHA, and local air districts

in the communities of Shafter, Eastern Coachella Valley,

and Arvin-Lamont. We conducted pilots for alternative

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

214

mitigation measures to reduce emissions and potential

exposures to the fumigant 1,3-dichloropropene or 1,3-D in

Shafter and are in the process of developing regulations

to implement those strengthened mitigation measures.

We also are in the process of developing a

statewide pesticide application notification system that

grew out of the Shafter community steering committee's

request for notification of pesticide applications. We're

coordinating with CARB, OEHHA, the steering committees,

and local air districts in Eastern Coachella Valley and

Arvin-Lamont on ambient air monitoring to evaluate

potential exposures unique to each community to inform

potential mitigation measures. And in response to each

community's concern regarding engagement at the local

level, we have facilitated conversations between the

residents and steering committees and their local

agricultural commissioners to further interagency

engagement and strengthen relationships at the local

level.

We're also beginning a process to develop a

county agricultural commissioner and community engagement

framework in collaboration with community, ag

commissioner, CalEPA, and CARB representatives. We look

forward to this work and our transition to a safer system

of managing pests to ensure that we're protecting all

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

215

Californians and our environment while supporting

agriculture and the management of pest pressures in

non-agricultural and urban areas.

Thanks very much for the opportunity to be here

with you today.

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: From the

Environmental Justice Advisory Committee, first we will

have Martha Dina Argüello, followed by Sharifa Taylor,

then Connie Cho, and finally Dr. Catherine Garoupa White.

MARTHA DINA ARGÜELLO: Hello. Good afternoon.

I'm Martha Dina Argüello the Executive Director of

Physicians for Social Responsibility, Los Angeles. I do

want to add that another EJAC member, Matt Holmes, is also

going to be presenting with us. So thank you again for

this opportunity.

As stated in the CARB presentation, the EJAC has

been incredibly busy doing, you know, outreach to

communities, but also working with CARB and the staff to

develop a true environmental justice scenario as reflected

in our recommendations. You know, a lot has been said

about all the work that has been done by the Environmental

Justice Advisory Committee. And as this is not my first

time being on this committee, I continue to be very

concerned about performative engagement versus meaningful

engagement. And to us that meaningful engagement act --

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

216

actually means we are listened to and see our concerns and

experience reflected in the Scoping Plan.

And I think that the scenarios that we saw today

still do not meet that standard. We urge the Board to

take seriously the concerns expressed by the international

climate and environmental justice community about the

feasibility and viability of carbon capture and

sequestration themes -- schemes. I urge you to look at

the emerging body of evidence that is not funded directly

or indirectly by the fossil fuel industry that these will

not work, that they will not get us to where we need to

be. And if our plan rests on technology that have not

been proven, what happens when we don't meet those goals.

What are the opportunities lost to actually improve air

quality and make our communities healthier and more

breathe -- breathable, and actually make the path toward a

just transition.

These plans allow -- we need to understand that

if you extend the life of the fossil fuel infrastructure,

that infrastructure currently is based in low income

communities and communities of color, environmental

justice communities. So to say that, you know, I think it

is clear that those impacts will fall on that community --

on our communities the most. And so it -- it's just sort

of -- I'm not sure why we're doing this, right? If it

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

217

allows us to say on some report, yes, we met these

standards of carbon capture, a technology that hasn't been

proven, I just really think the Board needs to tell staff

to go back and one, as Matt says, model out some worst

case scenarios. What happens if this technology doesn't

work? What happens if this technology, as happened with

others, actually ends up producing more carbon than it

takes in? These are serious questions. They're not --

you know, and there's an emerging body of evidence that

shows us that these concerns are real.

All right. We don't want to be here in three

years and say we told you this would happen, right? We

just have to get it right and do better at getting it

right. And part of getting -- doing better is looking at

the body of our -- of our recommendations and seeing the

reductions that it can get us and moving aggressively

toward those reductions, and getting us to real zero, not

net zero, not carbon neutrality, but really zero

reductions.

And I think it's important also that we adopt a

meaningful -- you know, pesticide reduction targets,

reduce the use of chemical pesticides by 50 percent by

2030, reuse -- reduce the haz -- use of hazardous

pesticides by 75 by 2035, and overall adopt more ambitious

targets for organic al -- I can't talk today -- organic

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

218

agriculture.

And, of course, you know, I'd be remiss if I

didn't say we've still yet to see how and when there will

be a robust public health analysis of past plans, and of

these measures, and of, you know, what are the potential

impacts if these fail.

And with that, I'm going to hand it over to my

other co-chair and my other EJAC members.

Thank you.

SHARIFA TAYLOR: Thanks, Martha Dina. Thanks

everyone who's spoken so far. It really gave me some more

things to think about in conjunction with the workshop

last week. I support everything Martha Dina just said.

To add some different comments, I'm really looking forward

to meeting with folks from E3 as well as the CARB staff

who are working on the Draft Scoping Plan, as well as once

it's relevant, the UC Irvine and Rhodium group folks

related to IMPLAN and whomever is responsible for BenMAP,

so that we can, like Martha Dina said most recently, have

a robust public health analyses, especially since you all

are considering CCS in every scenario, even the most

health protective scenario, which would be Scenario 1. We

definitely need a life cycle analysis in order to know how

this is going to effect our EJ communities, especially

because all of these CCS projects of course are being

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

219

housed where all the pollutants are, which are in our, of

course, EJ communities.

Also, I guess there's just still some concern

about how the public health analyses that are done with

BenMAP or any other type of modeling how they will be

incorporated into the modeling that we've seen so far with

PATHWAYS and that we will see with IMPLAN being that as

the plan is drafted from these first two models, BenMAP,

or the public health analysis is kind of just slapped on

there at the end.

And I think it's great that we are, of course,

focusing on like the economic aspects of climate

solutions, but I think to put the humanistic public health

concerns at the end ignores who it is that's going to be

acting out these economics solutions. And so I think, you

know, being able to mindfully put effort into

understanding like the risks to EJ communities, the risks

to the folks in the labor who are going to be helping to

move these changes along, I think is something we just

need to put more thought and discussion into.

And I guess that's the end of my comments for

now. Just cause that was the major concern, I don't want

to repeat what Martha Dina said, because she said it so

eloquently and I will pass it now to whomever is speaking

next from the EJAC.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

220

Thanks so much.

ISD AIR RESOURCES ENGINEER HAND: Connie you can

go ahead.

CONNIE CHO: Hello. This is Connie Cho. I am a

member of the EJAC from Communities for a Better

Environment. I use she/her pronouns. And I'm thankful to

the modelers here to the modelers for providing some very

useful information here. And I want to take a little bit

of a different tack in my comments zeroing in on one

specific sector. But I think it -- there are some lessons

here that can be extrapolated to the other sectors as

well.

There are so many critical assumptions that are

essential to understanding this modeling presentation that

are missing and they're scheduled to be released in May,

while comments are due April 4th, so that puts us in a bit

of a predicament. But I'd like to provide some had

context raise some questions that illustrate the

importance of understanding those assumptions that we have

questions about specifically in the refinery sector.

First, I'd like to raise that the environmental

justice advocates actually requested a 2045 phaseout date

notably with no CCS, which is not reflected here in any of

the alternatives, because we do care about feasibility and

we do care about complex data driven cross-stakeholder a

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

221

planning. And we through -- can discuss later other

mechanisms determined that 2045 was an appropriate target

phaseout date.

My main comment here is specifically about how

the refinery 90 percent capture rate assumption for CCS on

Alternatives 2, 3, and 4, and its timing for immediate

deployment is completely divorce from reality. The

modeling is only going to be as useful as the assumptions

and parameters that CARB chooses to provide.

So for some important background, in an EJAC work

group, the only example that CARB CCS protocol staff were

able to point to when I asked for an example of CCS

working on refineries was the Shell refining upgrade in

Alberta, Canada, where they have a tax on the tar sands to

fund these sorts of pilots.

The project ran into the billions. The actual

carbon capture is only on one piece of upgrader equipment

when refineries have thousands of emission sources. And

then another independent report showed it emitted more to

run overall than it captured.

Even if the technology existed for the other

emission sources at a refinery, where would they

physically put it? There's a serious problem of physical

limitations even for basic pollution controls at

California refineries right now. I want to know if that

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

222

was accounted for. There are only so many refineries in

California, so if we want to look at CCS on California

refineries, it doesn't have to and shouldn't be a

hypothetical exercise. You should assess the issue and

then craft an assumption that's appropriate. We can't

just pick a number that sounds nice or perhaps a number

that an oil lobbyist suggested.

And so in the Alberta project CCS on its -- on

one of the hundreds of emission sources, it looks like it

hit 80 percent at best, but with significant performance

issues. It's inconsistent. Some days being at 15 percent

and that doesn't even include the emissions required to

run the technology of course.

So all this still doesn't help me understand what

percentage of the total emissions at a refinery is assumed

to be captured, given that the capture technology in a

refinery only operates at one part of the refinery and I

won't go into the technical details of that.

But a California refinery is much bigger than an

upgrade is something we should know, and has significantly

more emission sources. And the air districts know that

because there can be hundreds, thousands of permits at a

single refinery. So I'd like to see that assumption,

because refineries don't even have continuous emissions

monitoring right now at all their emission sources. This

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

223

is a persistent data collection problem that I'm sure some

CARB staff are aware of.

And this modeling also assumes a steady carbon

capture from CCS starting immediately in the -- in the

graph. Is the implication that we just ask all the oil

industries to get started on this as a pinky promise, so

they'll reach uncharted levels of continuous carbon

capture, is that what we're assuming California is willing

to invest billions in?

So I think that those who care about California's

bottom line, not just the bottom line of industry would be

concerned about the multi-billion dollar price tag for CCS

required per refinery and the risks that I assume as

industry would ask to take on.

Now, if we want to honestly talk about capturing

carbon out of the atmosphere -- atmosphere while doing

everything to decarbonize everywhere else, we should have

that conversation. And I'm actually very open to that

dialogue. I love learning about new technologies. But we

have to have that conversation separately from a just an

equitable transition planning process to manage the

declining need for liquid fuels from over hundred year old

fossil fuel refineries, while providing a safety net for

their workers and communities who live there, because of

State sanctioned racist redlining.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

224

You know, there are so many different kinds of

carbon capture I've learned about and it's really sort of

confusing at first. And it's frankly heartbreaking that

there are corporations out there trying to confuse

everyone in kicking the can down the road on their

corporate billion dollar Environmental remediation

liabilities and workers' pensions, buying time to draft

their bankruptcy paperwork.

So I just ask the Board members to separate --

separate the currently very academic discussion of what it

means to have excess carbon, and really look carefully at

the state of technologies for each sector as they exist

now, the state of currently existing infrastructure now

that you are proposing to put CCS on and their impact on

communities, and think about what it really means to spend

billion and billions to extend the life of fossil fuel

infrastructure like refineries, with the rate of almost

absolute uncertainty.

And lastly, I'll just say that after seeing this

hypothetical assumption, it's a real slap in the face

after -- to see this and to see the OEHHA report in which

GHGs and PM2.5 pollution went up. It increased in

refinery communities, disproportionately Black and Brown

communities. And those illnesses, those deaths, those

funerals are not hypothetical. They're real.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

225

That concludes my comments.

DR. CATHERINE GAROUPA WHITE: Good afternoon and

thank you for that you for the opportunity to comment.

This is Dr. Catherine Garoupa White. I use they and she

pronounce and I'm the Executive Director of the Central

Valley Air Quality Coalition, or CVAQ, and also serve on

the EJAC. Thank you to my comment -- to my colleagues and

I support your comments as well. CVAQ works to restore

clean air to the San Joaquin Valley, which is one of the

nation's most polluted and poorest places. We work in

unceded Yokuts and Miwok lands.

We know that front-line communities contribute

the least and are impacted first, worst, and cumulatively,

and the Scoping Plan will only improve public health and

achieve climate justice if the assumptions are calibrated

correctly.

From the start, EJAC has been put in a

reactionary position and asked for adjustments from major

to minor, from improved format and coordination of the

public workshops and other forms of engagement to analysis

regarding public health and social costs of past plans and

current measures that includes local, cumulative, and

synergist impacts.

An analysis of the role of Cap-and-Trade is

missing from the current discussion of the modeling and

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

226

discussion of how mounting problems with the program will

be addressed. We are essentially halfway through the

planning process. And as EJAC members, we came together

to submit a second round of recommendations that again

frankly were rushed and that we need more time for robust

dialogue around.

While I appreciate the recognition for the

community engagement event that we held in the San Joaquin

Valley, again it was done with not enough time to really

have integrated and aligned planning. We are still

working to synthesize our written report out and look

forward to sharing that at a future meeting, and can

generally say that the overarching themes of climate

justice and resilience came through from strategies that

have been named today, but again that we need to see

implemented in our communities, like ecosystem

restoration, urban greening, and really a theme that our

communities are concerned that they're going to be left

behind as usual when these investments come through, that

it will be the wealthy communities, and the easy places,

and the big corporate polluters that will continue to

benefit. With longer term planning and support for EJAC,

which we've repeatedly asked for, feedback from our most

impacted neighborhoods could be more directly integrated

into the plan.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

227

And oftentimes in these meetings, we hear big

questions asked again and again, like what is the Scoping

Plan? The Scoping Plan is an important exercise that

sends market and policy signals related to key technology

choices as much as it's CARB's interpretation and analysis

of existing laws. Environmental Justice communities want

the right investments and recognition that money and

technology will not solve every problem.

Another overarching question that we are

constantly hearing is when will this happen? And often

it's not now, in the future. If this plan is truly an

iterative process that is updated every five years, this

plan is not a beginning or an end. It's a continuation.

We've heard a lot of interest in equity and an interest in

permanence for EJAC and a more integrated role.

So now we need to see actions to actually make

those things happen. What is the Board's commitment and

what is your role in the Scoping Plan now with your

existing resources and with an eye towards planning for

the long term.

In closing, I just really want to underscore

Connie's comments about wanting to be in dialogue. These

are challenging conversations. This is a difficult

challenge that we have in front of us that we need to

tackle together by improving planning and by providing

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

228

direction for CARB staff that every division should have

assigned roles in the planning process. We are past due

having an integrated approach and breaking down silos.

Thank you for the opportunity to comment and I

will pass it now to my colleague Matt Holmes.

MATT HOLMES: Thanks. Found the notification.

really appreciate the comments from my colleagues. This

body is really lucky to benefit from the insights of women

like that. So I'll just start by saying my name is Matt

Holmes. My pronouns are he/him/his. I'd live in

Stockton, California, and I work for Little Manila Rising.

You know, my experience in this CARB EJAC has

really been an education. I've been really grateful for

the opportunity to learn about all of these amazing

policies that impact my community in Stockton. I've met a

lot of smart hard working people at CARB that absolutely

want to do the right thing. But there are times, I think

as you just heard, where we're not connecting on like

direction, and values, and -- you know, I feel like I'm

tapping on really thick glass and people can't hear me on

the other side.

So there's -- you know, like I said, I'm not a

technical person, but I know a little bit about history

and I know a little bit about culture, and there's some

real barriers between this agency and the significance of

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

229

this plan, and really understanding the communities that

it impacts the most.

You know, I have felt throughout this process

that I am responding to a prebaked conclusion that ISD

knows that it wants to do and it wants to sort of tear the

Band-Aid off on the EJAC process, and get through this,

and get back to the work that it knows is more important

than hearing our input. So I'm really worried about being

appendicized and marginalized again.

So I think we -- you know, we're talking with

people and they seem to hear us sometimes about breaking

down these barriers. I think that can happen by, you

know, empowering an EJ Division that is sincere in hearing

from us, but doesn't seem to really have a lot of say in

this process that was sort of -- you know, they knew it

was coming for five years, but there was really no plan to

ramp us up and get us to some level of understanding where

we could provide an informed set of recommendations.

So throughout the whole process, there's been

kind of like a reticence to make a confident statement

about any of these scenarios, because even though we've

been meeting with you all since June, like excessively, I

still feel really uninformed on some of these scenarios.

So, you know, my hope is that we can actually

extend this process. You know I don't think the 20 --

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

230

it's been clear that there's no political will to protect

the 2022 Scoping Plan with a -- with an extension. But,

you know, there will be another Scoping Plan, and it would

be just a shame if in 2027, we were to trot out 30 new

unsuspecting community advocates and ambush them with a

dearth of knowledge and a mountain of responsibility.

So I hope we can sort of plan for the future and

find a way to break down the barriers between staff and

the -- you know, really what's a myopic set of research

questions that seem to be, you know, interested in

preserving business as usual, instead of really taking a

hard look at the moment that we're in.

I also think there's an opportunity to break down

the barriers between these appointed Board members. Ever

time we meet with you all, we hear -- we hear like

important insights and considerations. And, you know,

those are things that should be peppered in throughout our

process.

So again I think maybe I'm the optimist in the

group, which will shock everyone on this call. But in the

long term, I think we can get into dialogue, but I can't

lie right now, I do not feel like we are in dialogue. And

I feel like we are mostly commenting on process rather

than commenting on the content.

So, you know, 2022 plan feels like it's in

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

231

trouble. I look forward to learning as much about it as

possible. And I'll just say that, you know, I am not a

technically proficient person, but I am a history teacher

and I know what fairness looks like.

(Knocking)

MATT HOLMES: Oh, and I'm getting a package at

the door.

You know, and so I just -- I just hope that we

can use this opportunity, acknowledge that inequity isn't

just wrong. It's dangerous. You know, COVID should have

taught us that and the policies that the Scoping Plan are

framing have a chance to really paint this state into a

corner.

(Knocking)

MATT HOLMES: So I don't expect California to

necessarily do the right thing because they care about us,

but at least out of the basic self interest agree, they

should really take the consideration of impacted

communities more seriously to protect everybody. So hope

we can pull something together. Thank you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: All right. Thank you. Now, we

will hear from the public who would like to speak on this

item.

If you would like to speak, please raise your

hand or hit star nine now.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

232

Board Clerk, will you please call the first

Commenter.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank you, Madam Chair. We

have 17 commenters who wish to speak at this time. If you

wish to verbally comment on this Board item, please raise

your hand or dial star nine now. And I apologize in

advance if I mispronounce your name.

The first three speakers are Jim Verburg, Richard

Grow, and Joy Alafia.

Jim, I have activated your microphone. Please

unmute yourself and you can begin.

JIM VERBURG: Thank you. Good afternoon, Chair

Randolph, members of the Board. For the record my name is

Jim Verburg. I an the Senior Manager for Fuels Regulatory

Issues for WSPA. WSPA is a trade organization that

proudly represents companies in California and for other

western states that provide biodiverse sources of

transportation fuels and other energy. In California, our

member companies employ thousands and contribute

significantly to California's economy. We are also a key

part of the energy transition throughout the west and in

California.

Appreciate the opportunity to comment today on

the Scoping Plan in particular. I want to start by saying

we appreciate CARB's acknowledgement of the important role

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

233

of renewable fuels, hydrogen, CCS play in our view.

California will not reach its interim or 2045 goals in a

feasible cost-effective way without these and a diverse

set of strategies.

We do, however, have some observations and

concerns about the scenario models to developed by E3. If

the transportation sector reductions are heavily reliant

on ZEV mandates, we recommend a more technology neutral

approach that allows for innovation and suggests that CARB

run scenarios without mandates to identify alternative

opportunities to reduce emissions in the transportation

sector.

We also have concerns given the structure of

scenario models about the overall program costs and cost

effectiveness. We suggest, as we did in our October 2021

comment letter, the employment of market-based approaches

prioritizing the lowest cost implementation. These market

based approaches that are technology neutral are critical

to pursuing carbon neutrality in the most cost-effective

way.

Finally, just a caution, and it's been mentioned,

that the goals as portrayed in all four scenarios will

require extremely large projects with emerging

technologies, the likes of which have not been seen in a

very short time frame. CCS, hydrogen, expand electricity,

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

234

renewable fuel and gas projects and all accompanying

infrastructure improvements. It's a daunting task for

permitting CEQA alone, not to mention other potential

barriers. We recommend that CARB carefully consider the

feasibility of deployment rates as they are currently

portrayed in the modeled scenarios.

So in closing, thank you for your time today. We

look forward to providing written comments for the fast

approaching April 4th comment deadline and engaging with

CARB and other stakeholders in the coming weeks and

months.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank you.

Richard, I have activated your microphone.

Please unmute yourself and you can begin.

RICHARD GROW: Greetings. My name is Richard

Grow. You've heard from me before. My expertise, such as

it is, comes from working several decades at the U.S. EPA

in the Air Program and environmental justice and civil

rights. And regarding emissions trading, I've been

involved over all those decades in developing guidance

policies, safeguards, in evaluating actual Cap-and-Trade

programs.

And while today's main agenda topic, it's been a

broad look at scenarios, and modeling, and so on. My

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

235

comments regarding scenarios have to do with scenarios not

yet evaluated. None of your scenarios include the

safeguards and reform that have been recommend and

needed -- and shown to be needed by your Cap-and-Trade

Program.

Regarding Cap-and-Trade, you have at least four

reports in play. The first one, much favored by CARB

staff, is a 2020 report from UC Santa Barbara written by

two economists, for Pete's sake, showing the benefit of

Cap-and-Trade supposedly, a report by now thoroughly

debunked and discredited. But then you have the OEHHA

report, which after having been disingenuously cherry

picked for very clear talking points, nevertheless shows

serious problems in Cap-and-Trade when it comes to the

refinery sector, as has been mentioned earlier, especially

for people of color, the sector in which emissions of

greenhouse gases and co-pollutants were found to have been

increasing rather than decreasing since the start of the

program. The problem is likely to exist in other sectors.

And then you also have the recent report released

at the same time by Manuel Pastor and others showing very

similar problems and recommending reforms that are in fact

identical to some of those being recommended by the EJAC

for the Cap-and-Trade Program.

And finally, you have the report from the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

236

Independent Emissions Market Advisory Committee showing

that the AB 32 bank has so much funny money in it already

that basically the Cap-and-Trade Program is not going to

require any further reductions until 2030.

Anyone willing to cloak this situation in

congratulatory expressions is like -- which I heard a

hundred percent compliance of the Cap-and-Trade Program,

frankly is engaged in an intellectual gamesmanship and

dishonesty, games which are not only not amusing, but, in

fact, are dangerous to public health, especially for

disadvantaged communities.

So anyone on staff -- likewise on staff for the

Board claiming the mantle of environmental justice while

letting these games go on, I get -- I almost -- I don't

know what to say to you, but like stop it. And CARB

overall and the Board needs to stop stonewalling on this

issue, needs to do its due diligence and step up to the

evaluation of the recommendations and reforms of the

Cap-and-Trade system being put forward by the

Environmental Justice Advisory Committee and this needs to

be done now, not during. It needs to be done now, during

and not after the Scoping Plan process, so that you can

then deal with the real challenges left once the smoke

screen left behind, behind which the Cap-and-Trade Program

has been hiding has been removed.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

237

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: .... Joy Alafia. After Joy

we'll hear from Jeanne Merrill, Mariela Ruacho and Virgil

Welch.

Joy, I have activated your microphone, please

unmute yourself and you can begin.

JOY ALAFIA: Thank you. Thank you, Chair

Randolph and Board members for the opportunity to speak.

My name is Joy Alafia pronouns she/her/hers.

And I am with the Western Propane Gas

Association, an organization that powers rural

Californians, low-income populations, emergency and

essential facilities like hospitals and water treatment

facilities among of host of other markets.

Our industry's interest align with the goals of

CARB in an effort to provide meaningful greenhouse gas

reductions and to do so equitably. It is because of this

belief that our organization set forth the ambitious goal

to provide Californians with a hundred percent renewable

propane by 2030. This is a self-imposed goal as renewable

propane is -- provides up to 2.26 million tons of avoided

CO2 emissions.

And we can do this within the next two to five

years with the right support. This is the equivalent of

taking 537,000 cars off the road annually. Renewable

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

238

propane is produced from sources like use cooking oil and

animal fat, and provides a reduction of up to 80 percent

versus fossil fuels.

So as we transition to renewable propane, we can

empower communities that are left stranded by other

cleaner energy solutions or even provide resiliency for

communities to power through any Public Safety Power

Shutoffs or energy when they are asked to power down, so

there's a collective benefit here. And we can provide

this sustainable energy as early as 2024 in significant

volume with the right support.

I echo the comments of the EJ commentate --

commenter to look at life-cycle emissions as well as to

devise timeline benchmarks for deployment and assure that

the cost is equitably distributed, so that all communities

have access to carbon neutral solutions.

We encourage CARB staff to think creatively for

how all carbon-neutral technologies can work in concert to

provide complementary power, back-up power, power to

remote and rural communities and increase the volume of

renewable grid electricity that's available.

Through this lens, renewable propane delivers and

we look forward to working with CARB staff to further

elaborate on these points and the unique opportunities to

help achieve these goals.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

239

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: ...unmute yourself and you

can begin.

JEANNE MERRILL: Hi. This is Jeanne Merrill with

the California Climate and Agriculture Network. We're a

coalition of sustainable and organic agriculture

organizations. Thank you, Chair and Board Members.

We are very glad to see a stronger effort to

include natural and working lands in the Scoping Plan.

And we're glad to see in the scenarios modeling inclusion

of organic agriculture, farmland conservation, or avoided

conversion, healthy soils practices, grassland

restoration, alternative manure management, and more.

However, we are concerned that the lack of

inclusion of reduced or eliminated synthetic fertilizers

result in the modeling not telling us much about the

benefits of organic agriculture or healthy soils

practices. Moreover, based on the outcomes of the

scenarios, there's not a lot of detail on many of the

assumptions underlying the scenarios. For example, on

grasslands restoration, we know few details on what's

included there.

We know that climate modeling is very complex,

but the lack of soil carbon sequestration modeling and

non-croplands landscapes is a significant limitation of

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

240

the natural and working lands modeling.

We'd like to see more details on the modeling

assumptions and the underlying literature to better inform

us and others on -- on the modeling. And we would also

like to ensure that there's enough time for public input

to inform the Scoping Plan policy pathways as we pivot to

that collectively. The timeline is quite tight, but there

are many stakeholders who I think who robustly inform what

happens next on the natural and working lands side of the

Scoping Plan update.

Thank you.

MARIELA RUACHO: Hi. Can you hear me?

I believe that's a yes. Hi. Good afternoon. My

name is Mariela Ruacho from the American Lung Association.

We appreciate all the work staff has done on the

Scoping Plan. As CARB continues to analyze results from

modeling the four scenarios, we urge the Board to direct

staff to maximize the focus on programs that generate

direct emission reductions and health benefits. We see

the Scoping Plan as a roadmap for achieving critical

climate standards, but also a roadmap to healthier

communities, improve health outcomes, and less local

pollution.

We see these as working hand in hand and believe

that a focus in direction emission reduction measures is

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

241

the clearest pathway forward. Currently, there are still

questions about how some sectors will reduce emissions in

the scenarios reliant -- in the scenarios reliant on the

Cap-and-Trade Program and CCS. Again, we believe that the

most health protective plan will focus on direct emission

reductions and reductions in combustion as the primary

strategy.

We also encourage a strong focus on aligning this

plan with trackable measures for achieving healthier

communities, reductions in vehicles miles traveled, and a

better alignment of transportation funding with climate

standards. In addition -- in addition, CARB should

continuously report how they are responding to the EJAC

recommendations in the development and adoption on the

plan and throughout implementation. We look forward to

drafting plan -- plan -- the plan and working with staff

and Board members.

Thank you. Also, your audio is not coming

through very well. So just FYI. Thank you.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: ....microphone. Please

unmute yourself and you can begin.

Virgil?

VIRGIL WELCH: Hi. Can you all hear me?

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Yes, we can.

VIRGIL WELCH: Great. Thanks. Thank you very

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

242

much and good afternoon, Madam Chair and members of the

Board. My name is Virgil Welch. I'm with the California

Carbon Capture Coalition. The Coalition is a business and

labor organization working to create a comprehensive

policy framework to ensure that proven carbon capture

utilization and sequestration technologies can play a key

role in achievement of California's climate goals.

And I just wanted to acknowledge at the outset

the team at CARB and all the stakeholders and experts that

have been engaged in the Scoping Plan process. As you all

well know, this is an incredibly important part of your

work and it is one of the key opportunities for California

to demonstrate ongoing climate action leadership, both

inside and beyond our borders.

Carbon capture and sequestration technologies are

a necessary component of any successful strategy to meet

global, national, and California GHG reduction goals.

This is the conclusion of numerous expert analyses, as we

heard earlier, including the IPCC, the International

Energy Agency, here in California, analyses from places

like Lawrence Livermore and Stanford all demonstrate the

key role that CCS has to play in these efforts.

The math just simply does not work in terms of

achieving the emission reductions we're going to need to

meet scientifically-determined climate goals without CCS.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

243

As the presentation today made clear, there are

significant emission reductions to be achieved across

multiple industries and sectors in California.

And for some of the veterans on the Board, you

will I'm sure recall that CCS has been acknowledged in a

number of previous scoping plans as a set of technologies

that would need to be considered in the future. Well,

that future is right now. As the Chair noted in her

comments at the outset, we have got to get going and we

need action across all sectors to scale down emissions.

So just as we are doing the whole range of other

technologies, we need a comprehensive framework to enable

CCS to play a meaningful role in cutting greenhouse gases

in California.

I'm sure most of you are all well aware of the

fact that the Biden Administration has prioritized CCS as

an important component of national efforts to decarbonize

and is providing some really significant financial

incentives as part of the President's Climate Action Plan.

So we have a tremendous opportunity to benefit from these

incentives in California, if we put in place mace the

right policy and regulatory framework.

And, of course, we need to account for the

significant economic and job benefits that CCS can provide

here, which are quite substantial in terms of both energy

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

244

cost savings --

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: ...are Ryan Kenny, Evan

Edgar, and Julia Levin.

Ryan, I have activated your microphone. Please

unmute yourself and you can begin.

RYAN KENNY: Great. Good afternoon, Board

member -- Board members and Chair Randolph. Thank you for

your time today. My name is Ryan Kenny with Clean Energy.

Our company is the nation's largest provider of renewable

natural gas transportation fuel. And we are here to help.

We are looking to help the state drive deep

decarbonization and help meet the 2045 carbon neutrality

goals then, if not sooner.

We encourage CARB to continue incentivizing the

production and use of low to carbon negative fuels and to

prioritize in the Scoping Plan the reduction of

short-lived climate pollutants. Given the state's climate

emergency, policy tools are needed to help drive deep

decarbonization of fuels today. Encouraging greater

development of such low carbon fuels today will ensure

that future clean transportation markets will be powered

by fuels that are in line with California's goals.

As you know, diesel-powered heavy-duty trucks are

the single largest source of black carbon, which is a

short-lived climate pollutant, and CO2. Low to carbon

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

245

negative fuels capture methane, another short-lived

climate pollutant, before being emitted into the

atmosphere, and they are used to help displace diesel in

the heavy-duty transportation sector.

Near-zero-emission vehicles are the only

transportation technology available today that delivers

less than zero emissions. The average carbon intensity of

all natural gas reported in the California LCFS is

negative at minus 28.17. No other transportation fuel in

California averaged zero or below. So this is a

significant solution to help driving deep decarbonization

and to help meet the carbon neutrality goals.

The LCFS is working and we encourage CARB to

again focus on the reduction of short-lived climate

pollutants and to incentivize the production and use of

low to carbon negative fuels.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: ...please unmute yourself.

EVAN EDGAR: Chair Randolph and Board members.

My name is Evan Edgar of Edgar Associates representing the

refuse industry that is vested in anaerobic digestion

facilities coupled with near-zero NOx heavy-duty fleets

using in-state carbon negative RNG, while implementing SB

1382 to reduce methane in the near term and addressing

short-live climate pollutants, which CARB is not making a

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

246

priority in the modeling so far.

We filed a white paper today based upon European

studies regarding the carbon intensity of manufacturing

ZEV batteries, which is based on defensible science and

life cycle carbon accounting. CARB has a statutory

requirement to minimize the leakage, when considering the

Scoping Plan and not increase greenhouse gases on

non-California entities and that needs to be addressed.

With the CI of ZEV batteries, which are

manufacturing, which is 38 to 66 CI depending on the type

of ZEV battery. CARB's existing emission factor for ZEVs

used in California grid energy is plus 23 CI now and will

be for the next 23 years.

ZEVs are not zero emissions, but have a life

cycle carbon intensity of 62 to 90. CARB is picking ZEV

as a technology winner, while leaking emissions out of the

State. CARB has a statutory requirement to support cost

effective and flexible compliance when considering the

Scoping Plan for heavy-duty vehicles is not reflected in

the modeling so far while using ZEVs.

CARB should use -- should include ZEV battery

manufacturing in the Low Carbon Fuel Standard, since the

core tenets are based upon life-cycle analysis. The

modeling shows a tailpipe mentality where the ZEV is

wagging the dog.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

247

Modeling the scenarios shows diesel for decades

and RNG for very few. There is adequate RNG supply for

the refuse heavy-duty fleet to utilize in-state RNG by

2025 with a current in-state RNG productions underway,

where there are many co-benefits. EJAC and CARB shall

want to decrease diesel use instead of phasing out the

near-zero NOx fleet on a carbon negative RNG platform that

has near-term reduction than can try -- criteria

pollutants benefits now.

We cannot wait for a perfect 2045 when the world

would be timed out on climate change according to the IPCC

and COP. The UN General Secretary says climate change

target is on life support and we are sleep walking into a

climate catastrophe. It's time to wake up and model the

RNG.

EJAC is meeting next week and will be briefed on

the force child labor in the Congo and a review of the

Amnesty International documents on the serious human

rights violations linked to -- linked to extraction of

minerals and used in ZEV batteries, plus all the

environmental degradation in many countries outside from

Africa to South -- South America.

Where is the environmental justice for all. I'll

be asking EJAC that question next Wednesday.

Thank you very much.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

248

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: ...moment to test my audio.

Can you hear me, Evan?

EVAN EDGAR: Yes, I can hear.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Great. Thank you.

Okay. Julia, I have activated your microphone.

Please unmute yourself and you can begin.

JULIA LEVIN: Good afternoon. Julia Levin with

the Bioenergy Association of California.

I really want to thank the Air Board for this

focus on reaching carbon neutrality by mid-century, as

well as the new addition of really fully incorporating

natural and working lands into the main body of the

Scoping Plan itself, instead of treating it as sort of a

side or separate issue as past Scoping Plans have done.

Having said that, we do have a couple of concerns

and recommendations for the Scoping Plan. In particular,

we're very concerned about the sort of broad use of

different technologies or fuels as though they are all

equivalent in terms of life cycle carbon emissions.

For example, biofuels can have orders of

magnitude different life cycle carbon intensities from

positive -- kind of high positive to several hundred --

negative several hundred on a life-cycle basis. The same

is true of hydrogen. The same is true of electricity.

The same is true of zero-emission vehicles. So we need to

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

249

look all technologies, fuels, and other solutions on a

life-cycle basis or we are not going to get to a

defensible, actionable plan that really will meet our

climate requirements.

Our second concern is while we appreciate the

conversation round carbon capture and storage and direct

air capture, we think there needs to be a more targeted

focus on opportunities for negative emissions, because as

Virgil and other speakers have said, we know we're going

to need negative emissions to balance out to net zero.

That's not in order to continue fossil fuel use, but even

if we eliminate all fossil fuels, there will still be

emissions from other sectors and we need to offset those

with carbon negative emissions.

My third point is on slide 15 I could not

understand why, with a 75 percent waste diversion

requirement in California, slide 15 shows no greenhouse

gas reductions from organic waste between now and 2045.

I realized after looking at the slide for a long

time, that the reason is that that slide, and it turns out

most of the analysis, is looking at climate pollutants on

a hundred year global warming potential. That doesn't

make any sense for a plan that is intended to achieve

carbon neutrality in just over 20 years.

So I really urge the Air Board to reassess both

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

250

emissions and potential for reductions based on a 20-year

global warming potential. Do anything else makes no sense

in a plan that, you know, sets a goal for 2045. It also

really devalues the climate forcing impact of short-lived

climate pollutants and the immediate climate benefit of

eliminating short-lived climate pollutant emissions.

My last point is there's really no discussion

about costs. And we know that there is a very wide range

of costs for different reduction strategies, and

technologies, and fuels. And we cannot adopt a plan that

doesn't assess the cost effectiveness of different

technologies and choices.

Thank you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you. I am going to be

closing the queue at 3:22. So if you want to speak and

have not yet placed yourself in the queue by raising your

hand or dialing star nine, you need to do so before 3:22.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank you. Our next three

commenters will be Mikhael Skvarla, Steve Jepsen, and

George Peridas.

Mikhael, I've activated your microphone. Please

unmute yourself and begin.

MIKHAEL SKVARLA: Yeah. Mikhael Skvarla with the

Gualco Group here on behalf of the California Council for

Environmental and Economic Balance. CCEEB would like to

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

251

thank ARB staff, the Board members, modelers, and other

stakeholders who have dedicated substantial time through

these workshops and comment periods to date.

Carbon neutrality is an important pursuit

environmentally and has major implications for all

Californians and their economic prosperity.

Moreover, what we do globally -- or what we do

matters globally, if it can be replicated in other states,

regions, and countries. There should be an openness and

an optimism to any new viable solutions that move us

towards our goals allowing for innovation.

It's important to note that we do not yet have

the data, inputs, assumptions, like technology uptake and

other pertinent information to review these initial

results. Additionally, PATHWAYS is not an optimization

model, so these initial results are ambitious at best, and

not a complete picture. We look forward to the disclosure

of these technical documents in April as staff has

indicated. This will provide us an opportunity to fully

analyze the scenarios and model results to date.

However, even with daylighting of the PATHWAYS

inputs, we want to caution that modeling is not precise.

It is a -- at this points, it's simply showing an

ambitious picture absent the economic data and impacts.

The cost, affordability, consumer adoption, jobs impacts,

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

252

and other considerations must be considered in the

forthcoming economic modeling that will feed into the

Draft Scoping Plan.

As Secretary Blumenfeld stated, it is important

to keep all the tools on the table to provide for the

widest set of options for decarbonization. The future is

unpredictable and we are currently living the ever present

history of the future.

Current day solutions may not be sufficient to

achieve our end goals, so policies that enable innovation

and flexibility like the Low Carbon Fuel Standard and

Cap-and-Trade are incredibly important.

Finally, the energy system of the future relies

on upfitting, upgrading, and expanding clean and renewable

energy production, both electric and molecular. To

achieve our decarbonization goals, we need to build our

way to carbon neutrality, meaning that beyond capital,

permitting is a major barrier to achieving our goals. The

State should take action to enable rapid build-out of

decarbonization projects and low carbon technologies.

CCEEB looks forward to the opportunity to continue to

review, and comment, and provide feedback. And we look

forward to the data and the cost assumptions as we move

toward. Thank you.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank you.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

253

Steve, I have activated our microphone. Please

unmute yourself and begin.

STEVE JEPSEN: Hello, Chair Randolph and members

of the Board. This is Steve Jepsen, the Executive

Director for the Southern California Alliance of Publicly

Owned Treatment Works, or SCAP. We represent over 80

public water, wastewater, and recycled water agencies in

Southern California.

Wastewater treatment plants generate a non-fossil

biogas as part of the process of cleaning the public's

wastewater to protect public health and the environment.

State greenhouse gas reduction policies, such as SB 1383,

will divert food waste away from landfills to existing

waste water treatment plants located in all types of

communities. This will significantly increase the amount

of waste derived non-fossil biogas generated.

SB 1383 also requires the diversion of wastewater

generated biosolids from landfills, which will result in

more beneficial land application of biosolids in the

state, which also sequesters carbon and improves soil

water holding capacity.

The wastewater sector has a unique opportunity to

use wastewater derived biogas fueled trucks and equipment

for managing the society's wastewater, food waste, and

biosolids in a carbon neutral, even approaching carbon

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

254

negative scenario.

We need reliable homes for this wastewater

derived biogas to be resilient for the public. Using it

as a low carbon renewable fuel to power our essential

public service maintenance and emergency equipment will

expedite the transition from diesel-powered trucks.

The wastewater derived renewable gas clean

engines are currently available and in some cases already

in use, whereas zero-emission equipment are not available

for our sector, and based on communication with equipment

suppliers not feasible with current technologies. We are

not opposed to zero-emission vehicles, where appropriate

and available, and many of our agencies already have them

in their fleets.

In summary, the wastewater sector has a

non-fossil renewable fuel source derived from society's

waste that cannot be turned off. Engines and our

specialty equipment that can use this fuel already exist.

Embracing this non-fossil renewable fuel will expedite

carbon neutrality while getting diesel trucks off the

road, allowing the wastewater sector to continue our

emission -- our mission of protecting public health and

be -- and to be consistent with federal Clean Air Act

requirements.

This approach is consistent with the AB 32

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

255

Climate Change Scoping Plan statutory requirements to

support cost effective and flexible compliance.

Thank you for the opportunity to comment today.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: George, I have activated

your microphone. Please unmute yourself and begin.

GEORGE PERIDAS: Great. Thank you. Can you hear

me okay?

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Yes, we can.

GEORGE PERIDAS: Thanks. Thanks. Chair

Randolph, members of the Board. Thank you for the

opportunity to comment today. My name is George Peridas

from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.

Out job is to solve hard problems and represent

science. We do not stand to profit from any climate

solution and we don's have any dog in the fight, except

helping to solve climate change.

Today, I'm compelled to comment on what appears

to be a point of contention, the use of carbon removal

technologies. As with climate science itself, the

scientific community is overwhelmingly united in believing

that we must capture CO2 and put it back where it came

from, and that's deep underground. Our emission levels

and the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere are simple too

great, to high at this point. This applies to the globe,

to the nation, and to California specifically.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

256

Technological carbon removal does not need to be

the star player in this game, but nonetheless, it is a

necessary and important player if we are to achieve carbon

neutrality.

Fortunately, this is a proven concept and family

of technologies. Nature has stored CO2 securely over

hundreds of millions of years, well before we thought of

doing it ourselves. We have over four and a half thousand

miles of CO2 pipeline in the U.S. Tens of projects that

capture transport and store CO2 are operating worldwide

with an excellent track record.

In addition, California has the strictest rules

in the world to control the practice with brand new

regulations dating from the last few years that were

crafted with the failings of oil and gas regulation in

mind and with an unprecedented level of scrutiny.

The U.S. has safely stored 14 million tons of CO2

underground in research programs, run specifically to test

geologic storage. Returning CO2 deep underground is not

only necessary for carbon neutrality but can serve several

of other California's goals. It can present -- prevent

catastrophic wildfires, it can create rural economic

opportunities, maintain a healthy workforce, improve air

quality, and generate benefits for local communities.

We firmly believe that we can and have no choice

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

257

but to make these projects work both locally and for our

global climate emergency.

Thank you very much for the time.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: ...your microphone. Please

unmute yourself and you can begin.

Paul Mason.

PAUL MASON: Oh, hi. Sorry. It is hard to hear

the clerk call the names that -- the volume on that mic is

lower than all the rest of them. But my name is Paul

Mason. I am with the Pacific Forest Trust. And thank you

Chair Randolph and members for the opportunity to make a

few comments today.

I'll be really brief. We really appreciate the

much more substantial focus on natural and working lands

in this Scoping Plan compared to the previous ones. The

modeling that was described today and that we've all been

engaged with over the last, oh, many months is very

ambitious. Especially for the forest sector, it's going

to be hard to really know what that means until we see the

modeling results out to 2100, because over these next 20

years, we're going to create a lot of emissions under all

circumstance by thinning, and prescribed fire. And

theoretically we would see more of those longer term

benefits out in the second half of the century. So seeing

that information as well as the benefits to fire behavior,

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

258

water quality, et cetera, would be really interesting.

That said, I think it will be important for both

the forest and really all of the -- especially the natural

and working lands modeling that's so complex is to realize

it will be informative and sort of directional. But all

modeling has limitations and we'll need to combine what

we're seeing in the modeling with what we also know to be

true. And so that's going to need to get reflected in the

way the Scoping Plan is actually presented as this guiding

document.

And one of the things that we know to be true and

is going to be very important on our natural landscapes is

our interventions need to be driven by restoring an

ecological resilience that's going to be stable over time

and not just on maximizing carbon. And I appreciate the

staff calling this out in the presentations, but I think

it's going to be -- need to be sort of the driving

consideration to both trying to restore more forest

structure, but then also to maintain that and let it

develop over time. We need to make sure that we're not,

you know, doing good things now only to see the forest

clear cut in 20 years and be right back on to sort of

dense, fire prone, even-aged condition. We need to be

changing some of this management, so that we're restoring

the large fire resilient trees on the landscape as sort of

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

259

a driving consideration for how we get to a more fire

resilient, climate resilient condition on our forested

landscapes.

So really appreciate the moment to talk and thank

you very much.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank you, Paul.

And I switched microphones. Can you hear me

better now?

PAUL MASON: It's a little bit -- yeah, it is

better. Just make sure you're holding it close.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Okay. Thank you.

Our next three commenters will be Graham Noyes,

Sarah Deslauriers, and a phone number ending in 180.

Graham, I have activated your microphone. Please

unmute yourself and you can begin.

GRAHAM NOYES: Thank you. Confirming the audio.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Yes, we can hear you.

Can you hear me?

GRAHAM NOYES: Chair Randolph, members of the

Board. My name is Graham Noyes. Thank you for the

opportunity to provide comments today. I'm the Executive

Director of the Low Carbon Fuels Coalition. Our mission

is to support an expansion of low carbon fuel policies.

And what I'd like to share with the Board today

are what I see as some untapped opportunities to achieve

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

260

the targets faster. As other commenters have pointed out,

California has very aggressive goals in this sector and so

really recommend the use of all available tools, and

particularly tools that have proven well over the

experience we've had to date.

Regarding Slide 8 in particular, it shows

substantial use of fossil fuels all the way out to 2045.

By contrast, the Institute for Transportation Studies

Report, Driving California's Transportation Emissions to

zero shows a path to zero use of fossil fuels by 2045.

And that report was commissioned specifically to look for

strategies to achieve carbon neutrality consistent with

Executive Order B-55-18. So really recommend the

integration of that report to the greatest extent possible

in ts approaches.

Also on that same slide, we see under all

scenarios essentially a 20 percent reduction in carbon

intensity by 2030 and under Alternative 2, a 25 percent

reduction but not until 2035. And it is perplexing to me

why there aren't more aggressive numbers there. We

already have a 20 percent reduction within the LCFS

Program as it exists today. This is a program that has

gained State, national, and international recognition, and

is being replicated in other jurisdictions. We've seen

over 75 million metric tons of greenhouse gas reduction

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

261

and $10 billion in credit value. And it's made California

the world leader in attracting low carbon fuels and low

carbon fuel technologies.

But just this past week, Oregon with their clean

fuels program surpassed our program in credit value. Our

lamb has lapsed from a $200 credit value down to 120. And

the Oregon program by contrast is responding to an

Executive Order to really maximize the reductions. And I

understand that the LCFS is a separate process than this

one, but I think the Scoping Plan can take advantage of

the proven capabilities of this LCFS Program, and also

needs to send a signal to the market to grow low carbon

fuel production and expansion rather than shrink it, which

is the signal that the market is starting to get.

Thank you for the opportunity to provide these

comments.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: ...microphone phone.

unmute yourself and you can begin.

SARAH DESLAURIERS: Can you hear me okay?

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Yes, we can.

Please

SARAH DESLAURIERS: Excellent. Thank you. Good

afternoon, Chair Randolph and Board members. My name is

Sarah Deslauriers. And I am the Climate Change Program

Manager for the California Association of Sanitation

Agencies, or CASA, and we represent over 90 percent of the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

262

sewer population across the state. CASA is an association

of local agencies and we do perform essential public

services of cleaning wastewater to protect public health

and the environment, but while also advancing community

resilience through the recovery of renewable resources,

including water, energy or fuel, biosolids, nutrients.

Our members full support and are focused on

helping the State achieve carbon neutrality. We believe

the use of renewable biogas as transportation fuel, as

well as biosolids as an organic soil amendment derived

from wastewater treatment plants are critical paths in

achieving this goal, while reliably maintaining these

essential public services for all communities.

Anaerobic digestion is a key component of the

solids treatment process at wastewater treatment plants

across California that produces a renewable biogas or

digester gas. By capturing this resource, we avoid

venting it to the atmosphere and beneficially using it as

a transportation fuel, or for onsite heat and power

productions, or for pipeline injection.

Digestion also produces a beneficial organic

residual referred to as biosolids, which can be recycled

back to agricultural or natural and working lands as a

soil amendment to displace synthetic fertilizer.

Biosolids also sequester carbon, improve soil

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

263

health, which in turn improves water holding capacity, and

then increases crop yields, all of which are targeted by

the natural and working land scenarios, and we will be

sharing data, which support these valuations, and also

begin to address some of those noted limitations, like not

accounting for offsetting synthetic fertilizer, and not

including carbon sequestration accomplished on croplands.

We are concerned about the disconnect between the

this Scoping Plan scenarios to achieve carbon neutrality,

the developing advanced clean vehicle regulatory language

or fleet regulatory language, and the Clean Air Act

timeline requirements that are in place to achieve NOx and

ozone reductions in nonattainment zones.

This is especially concerning given the limited

available of heavy-duty zero-emission vehicle technology

for specialty vacuum and jetter vehicles that we need for

our sewers as Steve Jepsen mentioned, and the fact that

near-zero-emission vehicles are available today to provide

continued resilience while achieving NOx reductions.

Our members have already been required to invest

in compressed natural gas vehicles fueled by renewable

biomethane, as well as the infrastructure by various

regulatory requirements, including South Coast LEV 96.

And CNG is now showing in all Scoping Plan scenarios for

heavy-duty vehicles, but the definition of NZEVs in the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

264

Draft ACV does not support that.

We urge CARB to coordinate across these programs

and we thank you for the opportunity to comment today.

And we will be submitting more detailed written comments

for your consideration.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: ...so the phone number

ending in 180. We'll hear from Gary Hughes, John Larrea,

and Charles Davidson.

Phone number ending in 180, I have activated your

microphone. Please state your name for the record.

JON COSTANTINO: Hello. Can you hear me?

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Yes.

JON COSTANTINO: Thank you. This is Jon

Costantino. Good afternoon, Chairman Randolph, Board

members, and CARB staff. Im speaking today on behalf of a

number of clients that are focused on reducing their

carbon footprint throughout the different sectors of the

economy. We appreciate the ability to comment and look

forward to more important work that's going to happen

moving ahead.

The recent modeling results workshop provided a

partial compass where the landmark policy document could

go. Today's discussion will also help direct staff in

preparing that document. While we need to make sure we

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

265

take into account the public health and economic impacts

of these scenarios.

Some of the important aspects of carbon

neutrality were highlighted today and last week. The fact

that innovation and investment are the keys to success.

CARB's historical policy of all good ideas should be

welcomed should be retained from earlier Scoping Plan

efforts.

California has a whole lot of momentum going on

right now to reduce emissions. As we sit here today,

refineries are being converted, lower carbon biofuels are

expanding, CCS project are within days of initial

injection under the LCFS, hydrogen is getting closer,

methane capture is accelerating, and wholesale electricity

decisions are being driven by the price in carbon. New

technologies to reduce industrial heat are coming this

summer and so much more.

That's why isn't important for the Board to

direct staff to continue with an open and public process

to develop a broad inclusive plan that takes a realistic

view of innovation and investment opportunities, and that

the obstacles that needed -- that are needed to overcome

and achieves the success include rising energy costs, our

notorious permitting requirements, and the capital needs

and the time to bring this all together.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

266

The plan has been described as -- the plan has

been described by staff as being an endpoint document. If

that is true, then it is important that the market signals

drive the path forward, rather than CARB drawing a line on

the road. The most efficient, innovative, and successful

strategies may not even currently be on CARB's radar. The

path to success may look much different in the rearview

mirror in a few years than out the windshield today.

So I look forward to the -- continuing the public

process and thank you for your time.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank you.

Gary, I have activated your microphone. Please

unmute and begin.

GARY HUGHES: Thank you. Good afternoon, Chair

Randolph. Thank you, members of the Board for this

opportunity to speak. My name is Gary Hughes and I work

with the international organization Biofuelwatch. While

we continue to challenge the exaggerated climate benefits

attributed to the expansion of refining and use of high

deforestation risk liquid biofuels in the state, and while

we implore the Board to fully consider eliminating the use

of food as feedstocks for making fuel in a time of an

intensifying global food crisis, my comment today is

focused on the risks embedded in the reliance on unproven

and dangerous carbon dioxide removal technologies as seen

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

267

in the modeling that is currently central to the

development of the Scoping Plan.

Perhaps a bit of history with the fossil fuel

industry roots of direct air capture and the links with

campaigns of climate disinformation will assist in

illuminating this concern.

It was back in 1999 that a group of scholars

wrote the first known academic paper advocating for direct

air capture published on behalf of Los Alamos National

Laboratory. One of those co-authors was a former

scientist for Exxon who wrote, "Direct air capture

completely avoids a restructuring of today's

infrastructure. Carbon dioxide extraction from air would

allow the continued use of carbon based fuels".

Later the fossil fuel funded think tank American

Enterprise Institute created the Geoengineering Project,

with the head of the project co-writing a paper in 2009

advocating for the scaling up of direct air capture. The

American Enterprise Institute is well known for climate

disinformation and climate denial. The 2009 paper was

actually published by the Copenhagen Consensus Center, a

group infamous for its climate denialism and efforts to

delay real climate action.

We must ask how is it that the unicorn of direct

air capture, once the geoengineering crown jewel of the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

268

climate denial machine, is now promoted as a central piece

of the climate policy puzzle in California? This history

of fossil fuel industry climate disinformation is not

irrelevant. And we hope that understanding these dynamics

around the promotion of direct air capture as a tactic of

climate deception and confusion campaigns will empower

members of the Board to direct the staff to correct course

on the Scoping Plan by elevating modeling of alternatives

that explicitly acknowledge that reliance on large-scale

carbon dioxide removal, as the IPCC makes abundantly clear

threatens to result in irreversible harm to water

resources and biodiversity, as well as posing severe risks

to social justice and human rights, while failing to

reduce emissions as promised. We need a course

correction.

Thank you for your attention to this comment.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank you.

John, I have activated your microphone. Please

unmute and begin.

JOHN LARREA: Thank you. Good afternoon, Chair

Randolph and Board members. I am John Larrea,

representing the California League of Food Producers. The

League represents industrial food processors with

operations in California, many of which are subject to the

Cap-and-Trade.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

269

First, I'm pleased to see that all four scenarios

will apparently allow us to reach the 2030 goals, though

at what cost is still a question. The League will

continue to engage with staff to ensure the most

reasonable, cost-effective, and technologically feasible

scenarios recommended to this Board for adoption.

But, speaking to the whole of the analysis in

this presentation, I'm again disappointed to see that not

all available options are being considered, for instance,

the role of nuclear power. I mean you are considering the

complete elimination of combustion one of the scenarios.

For a hard-to-decarbonize sector like food processing,

that represents a huge problem and there must be some

viable alternatives available that make some sense for our

industry, whether in the area of combustion or energy

generation.

Now, please don't take this as an endorsement of

nuclear power, but if we are indeed in a climate crisis

requiring immediate action, as we are reminded of on a

daily basis, why are you not considering all options for

the rapid reduction of emissions.

Additionally, I'd like to mention that no matter

which scenario is ultimately approved by this Board,

generous and well-targeted incentives will continue to be

a fundamental necessity to achieving any of the State's

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

270

emissions reductions goals in the industrial sector.

I have great respect for the work and the effort

that the Board, and staff, and other experts have put

forth to date. Yet, I can't help but think that ignoring

the role that options, such as nuclear power, might play

in State's efforts to electrify or decarbonize, undermines

the credibility of these efforts to some degree.

I hope you, as Board members, agree that CARB

should make the effort, no matter how politically

unpopular it may seem, to be open to all options and to

insist that such options are expertly analyzed and

included in the Scoping Plan recommendation.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank you.

After Charles, our remaining speakers will be

Sarah Aird, Robert Spiegel, Steven Karen Smith, Alison

Torres and Julia May.

Okay. Charles, I have activated your microphone.

Please unmute and begin.

CHARLES DAVIDSON: Greetings, Chair Randolph and

Board. Charles Davidson here. Thank you for letting me

speak. I live in Hercules near the Phillips 66 refinery

in Contra Costa County, which is planning on being the

world's largest renewable diesel biofuels refinery in the

world and about 12 miles away from the Marathon Refinery,

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

271

which is planning on being the world's second largest

biofuels refinery.

Despite their renewability moniker, let us be

clear, making refinery biodiesel, or so-called renewable

diesel, from hydrogenated vegetable oils and animal fats

are as energy consuming and carbon intensive to refine as

the world's dirtiest, most dense, and highest sulfur crude

oils. This is because fat and oil molecules are

triglycerides, like the kind that your doctor measures,

and they counterintuitively are far more difficult to

crack than petroleum oils.

Marathon proudly claims a reduction in carbon

dioxide greenhouse gases of 60 percent in their renewable

diesel project. However, that 60 percent CO2 reduction

comes entirely from the 60 percent smaller daily

throughput specified by the project and is entirely not

from the decreased carbon intensity of the renewable

diesel itself.

Similar for Phillips 66, the facts belie the

case. Despite the shimmer of Marathon's decrease in

throughput, a simple look at the 42 percent increase in

hydrogen made by fossil fuels, combined with our

simultaneous decrease throughput results in a 32 percent

per barrel increase in carbon intensity. Similarly,

Phillips will be producing 37 percent more hydrogen than

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

272

with petroleum refining and a 36 percent increase in per

barrel carbon intensity.

So what we have proposed before us today in

California is a very expensive, publicly funded,

unscientific, and entirely CARB-facilitated carbon bomb

falsely based on their so-called renewable diesel being a

low carbon fuel.

Lastly, refinery biodiesel is being funded to the

tune of up to $3.32 per gallon according to Stratas

Advisors. That could amount to $5 billion yearly given to

Phillips 66 and Marathon under false pretenses, which

flies in the face of a massive increase in per barrel

carbon intensity and global food security.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Sarah, I have activated your

microphone. Please unmute and begin.

SARAH AIRD: Good afternoon to Chair Randolph and

CARB Board members, CARB staff, EJAC members and the

general public. I appreciate the opportunity to comment.

My name is Sarah Aird and I'm Co-Director of the statewide

coalition Californians for Pesticide Reform, which is made

up of more than 200 organizations across the state and is

deeply engaged with the low-income communities of color

that are most impacted by agricultural emissions in eight

of the largest agricultural counties in California.

First, in addition to a climate crisis, we also

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

273

have an environmental justice public health crisis in

low-income communities of color and agricultural areas in

California. The Scoping Plan is supposed to be addressing

and centering equity and public health in the Scoping

Plan, but has not adequately done so to date. To meet its

equity and health goals, the Scoping Plan must focus on

direct emissions reductions and not on new unproven carbon

capture sequestration technologies.

To meet climate, health, and equity goals, the

Scoping Plan must include strategies that support natural

carbon sequestration, but not to counter emission

reductions. They are a critical add-on to emission

reduction targets. In addition, it is critical that

public health and equity impacts for all proposed

agricultural management strategies are assessed, and are

used as limiting parameters for determining acceptable

strategies to be supported in the Scoping Plan. To date,

it seems that while there's been some attention to the

expected benefits of proposed strategies, there hasn't

been an assessment of potential harms posed by proposed

management strategies.

Second, we very much appreciate that organic

farming has been included in the modeling, the first time

ever, but want to urge that the current modeling scenarios

are not ambitious enough and should be aiming for 30

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

274

percent acreage in organic farming by 2030, not by 2045.

That would translate into an organic acreage of roughly 75

to 80 percent by 2045.

And then it's frustrating to know that emerging

independent science is showing that CCS technologies are

not living up to the promised carbon sequestration

expectations. And yet, CCS technologies may have

significant harmful impacts on environmental justice

communities, but they are being included in all of the

modeling scenarios, while pesticide reduction strategies

are not being included, when we know that reductions of

pesticides, especially fumigants, will result in better

protection of healthy soils, which mean significantly

greater carbon sequestration, reduction of greenhouse gas

emissions, such as tropospheric ozone, recognized by the

Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change as the third

most potent greenhouse gas, and nitrous oxide, 300 times

more potent than carbon dioxide from fields, which are

currently being largely ignored in the Scoping Plan draft.

These reductions also result in better protection

of community health, air quality, water quality,

biodiversity, and ecosystems. And it is for this reason

that we are calling on California to catch up with other

agricultural economies and adopt some ambitious pesticide

reduction targets, including setting a goal of 50 percent

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

275

reduction of pesticides by 2030 and Setting a goal of 75

percent reduction of the most hazardous pesticides by

2030.

This may seem not feasible. It is feasible. The

European Union has already adopted similar targets and

it's time California catches up.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank you.

Robert, I have activated your microphone. Please

unmute and begin.

ROBERT SPIEGEL: Great. Thank you. Good

afternoon, Chair Randolph and members. Rob Spiegel,

Senior Policy Director with the California Manufacturers

and Technology Association, or CMTA.

To begin with, I'd like to extend a thank you to

agency staff for their continued commitment and engagement

with stakeholders throughout the Scoping plan update

process. It's foundational to the development of the

Scoping Plan and it is appreciated by CMTA and our

membership.

CMTA participated in the March 15th workshop and

we're currently conducting a thorough review of the E3

pathways and related alternatives. Our initial review of

the alternatives has raised some concerns however.

We recognize that pathways was not intended to

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

276

include an economic cost or a cost assessment, excuse me,

which unfortunately though is critical in determining

feasibility and cost effectiveness of the strategies.

For business and industry, we have consistently

responded to the call for carbon emission reductions by

making the significant investments of both human and

financial capital to help the State achieve its climate

policies.

What may be required for us in the future is

critical to our industry and business financial planning

efforts. Now, across all of the alternatives, there are

significant challenges associated with future energy --

energy reliability, cost containment, matters of equity,

workforce consideration, and varying degrees of reliance

on technologies that while promising are not deployable to

certain sectors of my industry.

As it relates to the energy and electricity

section specifically, an increase in electric loads by 30

to 80 percent by 2035 and 60 to 90 percent by 2045 will

require significant capital and infrastructure expansion

efforts.

It's also important to note that manufacturing

undergirds these key components that are crucial, the

cement, steel, plastics, and glass will still be required.

These industries play a critical role in the development

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

277

of not only the electrical infrastructure, but in the role

of creating zero-emission vehicles, the new appliances,

the energy efficiency upgrades related to building

decarbonization, and providing the technological

innovation to meet the emission goals.

We're pleased to see a role for carbon removal

and other technologies for hard to decarbonize sectors.

And we continue to look forward to the future developments

and discussions surrounding the Scoping Plan.

Appreciate the opportunity to comment this

afternoon. Thank you.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Our next speaker is listed

as Steven Karen Smith. I have activated your microphone.

Please unmute and begin.

STEVEN SMITH: Thank you, Madam Chair and members

of the Board. My name is Steve Smith and I am with

Phillips 66. So we appreciate and thank you for the

opportunity to comment today.

And I'd also like to just thank CARB staff. I --

we at Phillips recognize that this Scoping Plan update is

a major endeavor with significant impacts, and

ramifications, and benefits for the State, and we look

forward to providing comments along the way.

So as Phillips, we do operate three petroleum

refineries in California. That do supply fuels, mostly

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

278

under the '76 brand, including gasoline diesel, jet fuel,

marine fuels, and more recently renewable diesel fuel.

We do recognize that the health and the economic

modeling results are still to come from UC Irvine and

Rhodium, but we do see certain pathways really starting to

take form in the modeling output, especially in

Alternatives 3 and 4. And I'll just touch on a few of

those.

First, you know, I think we are seeing an ongoing

need for a certain amount of liquid fuels. As I've -- as

you've heard from a few speakers, we at Phillips are

pursuing the production of renewable lower carbon fuels.

And today, we do produce and deliver renewable diesel for

California consumers. We are planning to discontinue

processing crude oil at our San Francisco site within the

next two years, and really provide lower carbon renewable

diesel for long-term, long-haul trucking, railroad

applications, marine applications that are appropriate for

liquid fuel.

And we're also optimistic that we'll be making

some sustainable aviation fuel off of that project in the

future. So I think in the Scoping Plan we're just looking

forward to seeing that role for biofuels, for certain

applications spelled out with clarity in the Scoping Plan.

I guess other stories we're starting to see

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

279

develop. We do acknowledge the role for geologic carbon

storage. We've heard a lot about that today, but we, I

think, do anchor in with CARB's view and Lawrence

Livermore's view that there is a role for geologic carbon

storage.

And finally, hydrogen. I think that there is a

future for hydrogen in the state. We haven't heard too

much about that today, but we see a strong role for

hydrogen and hope to be part of that picture.

So lastly, a few principles for us to all think

about as we move forward that we would encourage. One is

to allow innovation, set emission standards but ideally

without technology man -- mandates, dig deep on cost

effectiveness, and consider aggressive but realistic

timelines.

Thank you.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank you.

Alison, I have activated your microphone. Please

you unmute and you can begin.

ALISON TORRES: Good afternoon, Madam Chair and

Board members. My name is Alison Torres with the Eastern

Municipal Water District. EMWD is a water, wastewater,

and recycled water agency located in Southwest Riverside

County. We provide essential services to a 555 square

mile service area and serve more than 827,000 people.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

280

EMWD operates four wastewater plants that

currently treat a combined total of about 46 million

gallons per day. I do appreciate the opportunity to

comment today and the work that staff have put into the

Climate Change Scoping Plan scenarios presented.

As a provider of essential public services, our

facilities collect and treat wastewater from our

surrounding communities. And a natural by-product of this

treatment process is wastewater biogas. This is a

non-fossil, renewable, low carbon fuel and it needs to go

somewhere.

Beneficial use as a low carbon non-fossil fuel is

a technology available today. And it is critical that a

clear, viable market and pathway for the use of this

biogas is maintained. We are concerned that there is a

disconnect between the Scoping Plan scenarios to achieve

carbon neutrality by 2035 and 2045, and the Clean Air Act

timeline requirements for NOx reductions and ozone

reductions in nonattainment zones. This is especially

concerning given the limited availability of heavy-duty

ZEV technology for specialty vehicles used in our industry

and the fact that near-zero-emission vehicles are

available today.

The use of renewable biogas as a transportation

fuel should be incentivized over the use of diesel while

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

281

the electric vehicle technology and infrastructure market

is developing.

I urge CARB staff to ensure coordination between

concurrent programs and strategies, such as the

short-lived climate pollutant reduction programs, Advanced

Clean Fleet Regulation, and State SIP in a way that

maintains a viable pathway for wastewater biogas.

Wastewater biogas provides opportunities for carbon

negative emissions. I also urge CARB staff to ensure that

the Scoping Plan scenario inputs account for the continued

generation and use of this POTW derived biogas. The

Scoping Plan update scenarios also need to acknowledge the

important role of the public wastewater sector in

achieving the organic waste diversion mandates in Senate

Bill 1383 and the use of this wastewater biogas in

near-zero-emission vehicles as a renewable transportation

fuel.

As a member of both CASA and SCAP, I'd like to

also echo EMWD's support of the comments made by those

associations. And I do commend CARB staff for the work

put into Scoping Plan update thus far, and I look forward

to the continued opportunity to participate in the

process.

Thank you very much.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank you.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

282

Julia, I have activated your microphone. Please

unmute yourself and begin.

Julia, are you there?

JULIA MAY: Can you hear me now?

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Yes, we can.

JULIA MAY: Thank you. Julia May, Senior

Scientist, Communities for a Better Environment, CBE --

she or they -- with our community members in Wilmington,

Southeast LA, Richmond, and East Oakland.

On a previous comment, we don't dispute that

there's so much carbon in the air that the world needs to

find effective ways to take it out of the air to avoid

catastrophic climate change. But that's very different

from what's presented in the modeling using carbon capture

as an excuse to allow big polluters like oil refineries to

continue to pollute.

CARB must make this distinction and start a plan

to phase out oil refineries by 2045. Starting a plan is

not a lot to ask for and is consistent with your long-term

zero-emission transportation goals. It makes no sense to

say there's too much carbon in the atmosphere, so

therefore we should allow refineries to continue

polluting, while we try to capture a fraction of their

continued emissions.

CCS cannot put a big dome over refineries. There

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

283

are hundreds of stacks, including massive boilers, and

heaters, and other combustion sources, plus thousands of

fugitive sources. If a silver bullet existed to fully

cover refinery emissions, air districts would have cleaned

up the toxics long ago. Please don't be fooled by

pie-in-the-sky assumptions. This is a delay tactic.

We just remind everyone that the Board's --

including the Board that previous attempts to avoid

addressing refineries failed. Specifically, Cap-and-Trade

did not work. Your inventory demonstrates this. The only

sector that made substantial cuts was the electricity

sector, due to the Renewable Portfolio Standard, not due

to Cap-and-Trade.

So market mechanisms failed, because they're

cheap by design. They'd have to be 10 to 100 times more

expensive to have an effect, which will not happen.

They're chosen because they are cheap.

The failure of the market mechanisms was known

before California adopted Cap-and-Trade. Let's not repeat

that kind of predictable failure by relying on CCF for --

CCS for oil refineries.

On a finer modeling point, we don't understand

why the modeling shows refinery emissions in the CCS

scenarios going down immediately starting in 2022, even

though CCS doesn't exist right now. CARB, I believe,

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

284

isn't planning to get this on all the refineries until

2030. So we need the detailed modeling assumptions. E3

did a great presenting the results, but we request even

draft versions of the detailed assumptions not

immediately, as soon as possible.

We have the technology for a reasoned and just

transition out of fossil fuels by 2045. We must not delay

starting a detailed plan to phase out oil refineries and

their products.

Thanks.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Chair, that concludes the

list of commenters for this item.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: All right. Thank you. As this

is an informational item, there is no need to close the

record. So I will bring it back to the Board for

discussion.

Dr. Sperling.

BOARD MEMBER SPERLING: Thank you very much,

Chair Randolph. This has been a long but very fruitful

and useful exercise. And I do want to commend the staff.

They've done a great job putting together a lot of data,

models, getting a lot of input from communities, EJAC,

experts. And what's really admirable is they've started

with the science, with data, with research, and using

input to -- to frame it.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

285

So what they've done, as you Chair Randolph said,

and as Richard Corey indicated, is articulated high-level

strategies for moving forward. And, you know, along those

lines, I do want to especially commend the leadership and

brilliance of Rajinder Sahota for leading this, because

she is the heart and soul of this initiative.

So I'm going to offer some insights. And I want

to articulate more succinctly what staff has been hinting

at and highlight some of the key next steps.

So I'd like to offer some -- some insights and

context. And that is that what we've heard here so far is

a modeling exercise, which shows if we really look at it

carefully, and do the analysis, and follow up on what --

what's being framed, it clearly demonstrates that it would

be hugely disruptive, hugely expensive to get carbon

neutrality by 2035. You know, any kind of reasonable

assessment would say 2040, 2045 is really as soon as we

can get there. And I'm going to say some more things

about why that's important insight.

Now, modeling is really important to identifying

the key strategies, but it's only a framework. And the

details that we follow up with are hugely important. And

they're hugely important for accomplishing our climate

goals and our health goals in the most economic and the

most effective way possible, and doing it in a way that

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

286

does -- doesn't harm overburdened communities, and ideally

makes these communities, actually all of our communities,

healthier, more affluent, and better served.

Okay. So what I mean by details to follow,

that's -- that's all the regulations and incentives that

this agency does, that this Board does, as well as others.

And as we've heard in the testimony, as we see in the

comments, and heard at the workshops, there are advocates

for many, many technologies, many, many different

practices, applied in many different ways.

Lesson learned. What we and the other agencies

need to do is adopt robust cost-effective policies. It

would be impossible to adopt regulations and policies for

every technology and every application. And I know the

staff fully understands and appreciates that, because

they're already swamped by all the different actions and

regulations that they're doing already.

But the good news is California and CARB, we're

on the right path. We're clearly on a path to massively

reduce greenhouse gases. We have -- we have put in place

over the last 15 years the most sophisticated, the most

robust, the most comprehensive set of policies in the

world on climate.

Now, that doesn't mean they're the most ambitious

or necessarily even the best, but we do have a very robust

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

287

and compre -- comprehensive suite of policies in place.

You know, we're ignoring some things like we're

not dealing with aviation, except within our borders.

We're not dealing with international shipping, you know,

because it's not within our jurisdiction. And so, you

know, we're not doing everything perfectly. We're not

doing everything, but we are on the right path.

But having said that, another point I want to

make is that the most important contribution of California

is as a model and leader. That's actually far more

important than the actual greenhouse gas reductions we

get. And that's because climate is a global phenomena and

we're just one percent of the problem.

So I have a little -- so Richard Corey used the

word, "feasibility", and I heard some other people use it,

and I want to kind of define it with an anecdote that

helps us understand what feasible means. Feasible mostly

is economics, but it's also consumer adoption. It's

impact political and social impacts.

But here's a little anecdote, because I realize

most of our Board members weren't here for this little

experience. The little experience I'm talking about is

the black car story. A lot of the staff remember this,

but the Board probably doesn't. So about 15 years ago, 14

years ago, we adopted a rule basically outlawing black

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

288

paint on cars. And it made perfect technical and economic

sense, because black cars absorb radiation and make the

cars really hot, so therefore you have to have a lot more

air conditioning, uses more energy, more CHCs and HCFs --

CFCs.

But as you can imagine, consumers weren't so

happy with this. And actually as a matter of fact Rush

Limbaugh took it on as one of his primary talking points

and, you know, really did make CARB and California

somewhat of a laughingstock, you know, ridiculing us.

Now, we didn't actually go all the way through

with it. We pulled back at the last minute, but -- so,

you know, there's a lot of ways of screwing things up, and

even if they seem technically and economically right.

Okay. So let me, with that little anecdote, let

me talk about what I think are some of the priority

actions that we, CARB, and other agencies should be

taking, kind of helping us frame, prioritize all -- you

know, we've been hearing so many things here, technologies

and policies.

And actually Secretary Blumenfeld talked about,

you know, all of these many actions that are needed. And

so there are many actions needed, but some are a lot more

urgent and a lot more important than others.

Okay. So the number one thing -- strategy for

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

289

us, instead of policies, by far is ZEV cars and trucks.

It is far and above the most important strategy we can

pursue and we are doing it, but we've got a lot more work

to do on that.

And that -- by the way, that is for climate

reduction, but it also has huge health impacts. And

something really important here, this is something for us

to be thinking about is that it's actually good for the

economy and good for consumers. And that's a message we

should be articulating more getting out there. So there

will be a bump for another four or five years. There will

be a cost to the economy as we rollout these vehicles.

We'll need incentives and money for infrastructure.

But after that, it starts paying back, because

the total cost of owning these vehicles is less than per

gasoline and diesel, and this is for trucks too, probably

everything but the long-haul trucks that story is. So

that's -- that's by far the most important thing we can be

doing.

Another important thing is the Low Carbon Fuel

Standard. We've heard a few comments on that, that one of

the things we need to do is tight -- it's a really good

policy, but we need to tighten it up. Industry is moving

faster than we expected. And, you know, indeed, the

coping plan shows that there's going to be a lot of legacy

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

290

fuels that are going to be persisting and so we need to be

dealing with that.

Another one is tightening up the Cap-and-Trade

Program. You know, people question Cap-and-Trade, but

really that's the one policy where we're imputing a price

to carbon, you know, through the whole economy. We have

a -- we have a market economy. You've got to bring a

price to it. There's lots of other things we can be

doing, and should be doing, and are doing, but that's

important.

Another one priority is the cement industry.

When we did our first Scoping Plan, we basically ignored

cement. We said it's too hard. There's no other ways of

doing it and we just really were, you know -- had a very

light touch and that's changed. Now, we know there lots

of good ways of dealing with it. And then there's -- so

those are all what CARB can, and should be doing, and is

doing.

And then there's all the actions by other

agencies. And, you know, just real quickly -- actually,

the number one strategy for California or the world on

climate is decarbonizing electricity. So I said ZEV cars

and trucks, that's the most important for CARB, but

decarbonizing electricity is the most important overall.

And if you don't, then the ZEV cars and trucks are not

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

291

really ZEVs.

Okay. So there's that. There's PUC and the

Energy Commission working on efficient -- energy

efficiency, fossil gas reduction in buildings. There's

the Resources Agency dealing with carbon sequestration on

natural and working lands. There's the Energy Commission

on charging and hydrogen infrastructure. There's

Department of Food and Ag with N2O, methane, other -- you

know, other activities with working lands.

And the last item I wanted to address is actually

one that the Scoping Plan emphasizes, but really doesn't

make sense - sorry - and that's VMT, vehicle miles

traveled. I'm a strong advocate for trying to figure out

what to do about reducing VMT. But if you look at the

data, VMT is going up, not down, despite all of our

efforts. And so there are lots of things we can do. Most

of the things we want to do is not for climate

improvement, but for all the other co-benefits, you know,

creating more sustainable cities, you know, healthier

cities, and economics of cities as well.

But let's not get ourselves caught up too much on

trying to do things that are difficult, if not impossible,

to -- think back to Rush Limbaugh for instance.

Okay. So just to summarize what I've been

saying. I know I gave a long speech, but I haven't said

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

292

anything in a long time and this is my first time in

public.

(Laughter.)

BOARD MEMBER SPERLING: I actually -- I've

been -- I've been sick and have been recovering from an

operation, so this is like really exciting for me to be

out here.

(Laughter.)

BOARD MEMBER SPERLING: So, you know, to leave it

on a positive note, we really are on a positive -- on a --

on the right path. And I think we really need to keep

that in mind. What we need to -- there's lots of

challenges. There's lots of bumps. There's lots to worry

about, but basically we have most of the right policy

instruments in place. We need to refine them. We need to

extend them. We may need to make some adjustments to

them, but we're on the right trajectory. We're in a

really good place. And we are a model. And we're

benefiting. You know, I said the most important thing is

being a model and a leader, but being a model and a leader

in our case is actually we get a lot of benefit like from

what I talked about with vehicles going to ZEV cars and

trucks. We're going to benefit economically from being a

leader in that.

So thanks for your indulgence. Much appreciated.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

293

And I'll leave it to my other Board members to tell me

where I'm wrong.

(Laughter.)

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Okay. Thank you.

Dr. Balmes.

BOARD MEMBER BALMES: Thank you, Chair Randolph.

Well, I agree with a lot of what my fellow UC

professor said, but he left out an important area --

actually two where I think California needs to lead. And

I'll start with praising staff for modeling carbon

emissions and sequestration in natural and working lands.

This is much more robust than in previous Scoping Plans.

And so I really appreciate it, because, in fact, dealing

with wildfires is a hugely important issue for California

and the mountain west in general, and in effect around the

world. So we need to lead with regard to reducing the

risk of catastrophic wildfires as the climate increases

the risk of those fires and development in the wildland

urban interface threatens the people who live there and

the society they has to deal with trying to save their

structures.

So the amount of investment that we'll have to

make to manage our forests. You know, the modeling

mentioned that we have to manage the forest and it showed

that the forests were the biggest contribution to carbon

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

294

emissions in the time frame that was modeled. The amount

of investment is huge. California has started to get a

little more serious. We're currently supposed to be doing

forest management for one million acres a year. I don't

think we've come close to that in any previous years.

And, in fact, because last year was such a bad

wildfire year, the U.S. Forest Service stopped doing

prescribed burns, because of the concern about risk of new

fires. So the forest management issue is huge. And I

thought that the -- I mean, I know we'll have more

discussion about the Scoping Plan in the future, but

it's -- I have to elevate this problem. And, you know,

again, it's not something that CARB controls. We have to

work with sister agencies, but we can highlight the

magnitude of the problem in the Scoping Plan.

And just to give an example, I don't have numbers

for California at my ready, but the bad wildfire season,

brush -- bush fire in Australia, the 2019-2020 fire season

for Australia, the amount of climate forcing emissions was

equal to the entire -- entire year of other sources of

greenhouse gas emissions in Australia. And I again don't

know the number for California. But last year was such a

bad wildfire year in terms of acres burned that I think it

may not be as much as motor vehicles, Professor Sperling,

but it's a huge cont -- contribution. It's only going to

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

295

get worse. So that's -- that's the number one area where

I would add on to Professor Sperling's comments.

And the other one is agriculture. And I actually

have to take some issue with Secretary Blumenfeld who

said, you know, pesticides can't be included in the

Scoping Plan. Well, I realize we don't have data about

greenhouse gas emissions from pesticides. We do recognize

it's a health burden, especially for low-income

communities that -- of color that live near agricultural

lands. But we need it -- as I said last Board meeting, we

need to transform agriculture to be more sustainable, less

synthetic in terms of pesticides and fertilizer. It's a

huge transformation that is needed and it's -- you know,

we've -- as Professor Sperling said, we've made a lot of

progress towards zero-emissions vehicles. We've made a

lot of progress towards renewable power, but we need to

make a lot of progress with regard to natural and working

lands, and that includes both forest management and

agriculture. And if we made that transformation of how --

of agricultural practices, then we wouldn't have to use

pesticides that are such a health problem, and an

inequitable health problem in particular.

And I guess finally I would have to say, and this

is politically unwise of me to say, but trying to give

everybody in the state a gas tax re -- or gas re -- gas

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

296

price rebate makes no sense to me, when we're trying to

reduce greenhouse gas emissions from motor vehicles with

combustion engines.

I can see a targeted -- targeted support for

low-income people, but I have two cars, one of which is a

battery electric. If I get $400 for my battery electric

car, plus $400 for my wife's internal combustion engine

that $800, I'd rather see it go to -- towards forest

management. And, you know, maybe we don't have the

ability to do all the forest management that we need to do

now. We can put it into a fund, because we're going to

need that money down the road, so -- and also, we always

talk every Board meeting about all the incentive dollars

that are needed to move towards zero-emission vehicles

today. We talked about all the incentives needed for --

to move towards ZEV commercial harbor craft. Again, why

are we going to put $9 billion towards dealing with gas

price rebates.

Thank you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you.

Dr. Pacheco-Werner.

BOARD MEMBER PACHECO-WERNER: Thank you, Chair.

And, you know, thank you, everyone, for their

contributions. Sorry. I'm a little bit under -- under

the weather today, but I do want to ask several questions

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

297

here. And I know that my line of questioning may sound

like I'm asking you to defend your dissertation, but I

just want to make sure I clarify some of the assumptions

that were made during the comment period and how those

align with your work that you've arrived to today, and

also some questions about the next steps.

This is such a critical process that I know you,

along with so many in our public, has spent countless

hours towards, so I just want to make sure we kind of

attend to some of these -- some of these questions, some

made by our EJAC and some made by -- by the public.

And so I -- if I can, maybe I'll ask all my

questions first and then -- and then I really would love

to hear back on -- on these.

The first question is on the modeling of the

refining operations, one of the EJAC members made a

comment about the modeling being based on hypotheticals

versus actual operations. Can you please respond as to

how your modeling compensates for that?

In this -- the next question is in terms of the

comments from the waste management industry, their -- the

use of their natural gas, can you please clarify for me

how you have or have not included the use of that gas from

that -- from just that particular industry into your

scenarios.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

298

The third question is there were comments made on

the effectiveness of carbon capture and sequestration.

Can you please let me know a little bit more about where

CARB stands on the -- on this technology in terms of its

effectiveness?

The next question -- and if you need me to repeat

any of then, I'm happy to do so. The next question is

that there were comments during the presentation as to

adjusting the modeling at a later date. Does that mean

the modeling we saw today will be based -- will be

modified based on the health and economic analysis to come

or modified for some other reason?

And then my last question is around the -- there

were -- there were comments made on -- on sort of like the

global impact of -- of solar and battery generation. And

I just wanted to see if you could respond to that comment

in terms of how that does or does not fit into your

modeling or are we just -- you know, are we -- are we just

focused on really what this means for -- for reductions in

California or globally?

And I would like to say in terms of -- of

comments, that I -- just one comment that I do look

forward to the creation of a permanent EJAC Board that

looks like and is the face of what California looks like,

and, you know, from regions to demographics, to

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

299

disproportionate impact. So looking forward to that

process when it comes.

Thank you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Staff, you want to respond to

Dr. Pacheco-Werner's questions.

DEPUTY EXECUTIVE OFFICER SAHOTA: Good afternoon.

This is Rajinder. I'm happy to respond to the questions

and may ask Matt Botill the Division Chief for ISD to step

in on one of them.

So there was a question about the modeling for

the refinery. And that was about a hypothetical versus

operations. There is a whole discussion in the Scoping

Plan about uncertainty. There is going to be uncertainty

about the types of technologies, the permitting, the

timing, the capital costs to do these projects. And

there's also going to be uncertainty about the

configurations at any of the facilities where you may

apply some of this technology.

And so we are going to be putting together

information that speaks to historically how effective CCS

has been applied to refinery installations, because as one

of the speakers highlighted, there are multiple smoke

stacks on any installation site. And so it is important

for us to be able to say with some amount of confidence

that we think we can capture a high amount of emissions

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

300

with CCS on that site.

But that's not the only uncertainty, which is

between what we're modeling versus what's on the ground.

There's a lot of uncertainty in here and we're going to

try and capture that in the analysis as well. And again,

this is a plan. It is a guiding post -- an actual

guidepost or where to go with projects and regs. And so

as we think about programs and policies to actually go

after the refining sector, or the energy sector, we get to

have more detailed analyses, where we may find out the

capture rates are different or that different technology

options are now available, or that there are better ways

to do the greenhouse gas reductions and get better

co-benefits than what we outlined in the snapshot, which

is the Scoping Plan with the information we have today.

So that's the first question.

We talked about CCS effectiveness and technology.

I think that there's been a bit of a lag in the

conversation on CCS, especially in the Scoping Plan. We

did have two full day workshops, one in 2019, and one in

August of 2020 -- or 2021. And we talked about the state

of the technology, the effectiveness of the technology,

the science behind the technology. And there's actually

20 years of testing that shows that CCS is safe and

reliable.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

301

There is data that's over two decades old at the

Department of Energy that talks about how they've been

able to successfully sequester 14 million metric tons that

have been injected. There's also been projects that have

been in operation since the 70s and 80s globally. And

again, more than half of the installation for large-scale

CCS are in North America.

So there's a long history and a lot of detail on

CCS that I think needs to be part of the conversation.

And I think when Secretary Blumenfeld said that he'd like

to be part of the conversation and Chair Randolph talked

about feasibility and the tools on the table, we're

hopeful that as part of moving forward, we can have a

chance to talk about some of that data, some of that

information and bring it into the conversation.

In hearing all the comments to date and just

thinking about the information gap between what's been

existing in the workshops and what the perception is on

CCS, I think it's also important to highlight that for the

longest time we've all focused on removing or reducing

emissions from the sources that produce emissions. And

it's only been recently in the IPCC report that removing

carbon out of the atmosphere or capturing carbon at the

smoke stack has taken on greater importance.

So while this technology has been around for

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

302

quite a bit of time and there's been programs at the

federal level, including investment opportunities and tax

credits, it hasn't been looked at seriously, because as

policymakers we've focused on trying to reduce emissions,

not capture carbon, or remove carbon from the atmosphere,

but the science now says that has to be part of the

solution. And so that's why you're hearing it picking up

pace in the conversation, not just in California, but

nationally and internationally.

The adjusting for the modeling later, we are

actually going back and looking at some of the comments

that we got at the workshop last week, doing some

verification, so the inputs that we had in the modeling

that we put out last week in making minor tweaks to some

of the assumptions. For example, I think in slide 8 or 9

there was assumption of a carbon intensity of 25 percent.

That was a constraint that was not meant to be carried

through. We will actually be looking at removing that

constraint, not a wholesale change of those scenarios, but

removing that constraint and then talking with staff about

starting workshops this summer on LCFS related to

accelerating the carbon intensity going into 2030 and then

past 2030, because the modeling shows that we need more

clean fuels to come on faster. And LCFS is an excellent

tool for helping to subsidize and to get money into the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

303

clean fuels sectors of the economy.

The last question was about -- well, the last

question I'm going to take out of that list is about

global implications of solar and battery. When we talk

about solar installations and solar power, what we're

really talking about is the power consumed in California.

And as you're aware, California is an -- is a huge

importer of power. So that power can be created in

California, sited in California, or sited in -- anywhere

in the Western U.S. and the west.

We've seen issues related to permitting and

siting on large scale renewable installations, like solar

farms, wind farms. And we know that there are efforts to

build wind farms and solar farms in states around --

surrounding us. To the extent that power comes to us,

it's not going to generate emissions elsewhere. It is

renewable power and it will help decarbonize our

electricity grid and grow our electricity grid, because

the load growth goes increase.

When we -- I think you also asked a question

about batteries. Right now, what we're identifying is the

amount of zero-emission vehicles that we think we need to

meet the Governor's Executive Order. The quantification

is really about tailpipe emissions, not the imbedded

emissions that are going to be in the batteries or the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

304

steel that builds those vehicles, because our accounting

framework and our jurisdiction as the State of California

are tailpipe emissions in the state and then also

emissions of the smoke stack. So that is a constraint in

which we live in and work in, because that is where our

target for 2020, 2030 is set. And those are the sources

over which we have direct control in the state of

California.

There will be a discussion that some of our

programs and some of our actions actually have a reach

farther than California, but we're not going to be able to

quantify it and we can't regulate those anyway outside of

our border.

There was a question about the waste sector,

natural gas, and how the -- a renewable gas from the waste

sector was being directed in the modeling. And for that

one, I'm going to ask Matt Botill to jump in.

Thank you.

INDUSTRIAL STRATEGIES DIVISION CHIEF BOTILL:

Yeah. Thank you. Matt Botill, Division Chief

for the Industrial Strategies Division. So we heard a

number of comments from folks that work in the waste

sector about RNG and gas. And I'll just take a step back

and flag that, you know, under 1383, we've been directed

to reduce our short-lived climate pollutants, including

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

305

methane, by 40 percent by -- 2013 levels by 2030. And so

that's really driving some of scenario assumptions to make

sure that we hit our methane reduction targets.

And some of the ways that we do that are through

capture of fugitive methane emissions from waste

activities. And so we -- I mean, the modeling included

the strategies to hit our 1383 requirements by 2030. And

that in and of itself by looking at anaerobic digestion

technologies, at wastewater treatment plants, at dairies,

at landfills in terms of gas capture produces some RNG

that is available as an energy source for the broader

economy, whether it's in transportation, or the industrial

sector, or as replacement for fossil gas in the

residential and commercial sectors.

So we were able to put in some RNG quantities

into the modeling. It's small in terms of the total

energy value, but it does show up in terms of being able

to be deployed as either a natural gas replacement or for

hydrogen production in the modeling.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Okay. Thank you.

Dr. Pacheco-Werner, did that answer your

questions?

BOARD MEMBER PACHECO-WERNER: Just one clarifying

question. Since you are grouping, in terms of the RNG,

the waste management and the ag capture, is there any

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

306

prioritization of either one or the other in the modeling?

INDUSTRIAL STRATEGIES DIVISION CHIEF BOTILL:

Yeah, good question. So the strategies are a

little bit different. For the wastewater sector, we're

assuming that we'll be able to hit our 1383 targets

predominantly based off of reductions in methane

emissions, capturing those methane emissions from

anaerobic digestion and using that RNG. On the ag side,

there's different strategies. So there's the opportunity

reduce those methane emissions through both digesters,

through alternative manure management practices, through

reducing the enteric emissions that come from cattle

digestion, as well as opportunities to reduce methane

emissions from reducing herd sizes in the dairies. And so

there is different strategies across the alternatives to

get to those methane reduction numbers.

Some rely more on digestion, and capture, and use

of RNG and others rely more on these alternative

strategies that aren't so heavily dependent on digesters.

So there's just differences across the scenarios on the

utilization on the ag side for RNG.

BOARD MEMBER PACHECO-WERNER: Thank you. That's

all

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Okay. Thank you.

Supervisor Serna.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

307

BOARD MEMBER SERNA: Great. Thank you, Chair.

And let me also start by thanking staff. This is a -- I

think a very good body of work. And this is the third one

that I've had the chance to be a party to as a member of

this Board. And I understand that this is an iterative

process, that, if I understand correctly, staff is simply

looking for some general feedback today from the Board.

It's not an action item. But the feedback you do receive

will be used to hone the Draft Scoping Plan even further.

And the schedule in front of us for the balance of the

year, we have a number of other opportunities to certainly

continue to do that and hear from the public and

stakeholders.

So in the spirit of giving you some general

feedback, I will say this is extremely -- an extremely

timely conversation and an item to be considered today for

me, because last night, I left our Board of Supervisors

Chambers at about 11:30 p.m., after a 5-hour hearing on

our draft Climate Action Plan. And I may have other

colleagues here on the Board that also in their respective

local jurisdictions are perhaps engaged in similar

activities.

But I want to underscore that not only is the

Scoping Plan obviously something that has to, you know, be

done no later than every five years. Relative to siting

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

308

in place, implementing basically an action plan to get us

to our carbon reduction goals. But it's being used more

and more by local government as a -- as a bit of a general

template for how their own climate action plans will

develop and as a basis for some of the -- or many of the

strategies that we would employ locally to achieve our own

carbon reduction or even carbon neutrality goals at the

local level, the municipal and the county levels.

One of the things that I'd like to make mention

of, and hopefully it resonates with staff to the point

that perhaps the next time this Board and the public

receive an update, or as I mentioned, we continue to

fine-tune it, is that while the State of California

certainly doesn't directly govern land uses, that's

largely left to municipalities and counties to govern

that -- to govern that activity, much of the discussion

that we had last night centered around infill development

versus greenfield development, and VMT reduction. And as

Dr. Sperling pointed out, perhaps that's something that is

not just frustrating him, but others in terms of it going

in the wrong direction.

But I think we can all understand that there is a

direct relationship between how we plan our new

communities and what we can expect in terms of VMT in the

future.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

309

One of the things that I'd like to suggest is

that perhaps we have a stronger connection that is

directly referenced in the Scoping plan and perhaps it's

best couched in terms of how we might work more

collaboratively with OPR to provide guidance for local

governments as more and more are doing their -- or

pursuing a Climate Action Plan, or something similar, so

that we at the State in the development of the Scoping

Plans, and with each one that we update in the future,

there's some acknowledgement of the menu of options that

could be articulated at OPR for local governments to, you

know, begin to employ with the direct intent to achieve

the same basic objectives of the Scoping Plan, but at the

local level.

I didn't hear a lot of that in the presentation

quite frankly. And I just kind of, you know, pondered on

the fact that this is a very different conversation today,

than it was last night for me, because of that difference

in authority over land use regulation. But I would argue

that it is probably one of the most important when it

comes to again achieving the goals of the Scoping Plan.

So I would just offer that up and strongly

suggest that staff and other people much smarter than I

can think about how we weave that into our further --

future activities as we get closer to a final Scoping

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

310

Plan.

Thank you, Chair.

DEPUTY EXECUTIVE OFFICER SAHOTA: Board Member

Serna, this is Rajinder. And you're right, it wasn't part

of the modeling fights that we had today, but just like in

the last Scoping Plan, we are going to speak to how all

levels of government need to be rowing in the same

direction to achieve the outcomes that we're calling for

for GHG and air quality reduct -- or air pollution

reductions.

And so there will be a section that is very

specific about local action, whether it's CEQA, whether

it's permitting, and where we're trying to get to overall

in the state, and acknowledging that many of the decisions

around the things that need to happen on the ground, the

projects that we need to bring new energy on, the projects

that we need to have infrastructure, or sustainable

housing, and reduction strategies from VMT, those are very

clearly with local government. They're not with the State

and so we need to be partners there.

BOARD MEMBER SERNA: Thank you for that. I just

think we can be more obvious about the fact that we do

have this new tool that we're -- that we, local

government, are beginning more and more to embrace, which

is the Climate Action Plan. And so that may be something

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

311

that we want to clearly not just mention in the Scoping

Plan, but, you know, acknowledge that these -- that the

State's Scoping Plan efforts really do provide a

springboard for local -- local governments to go through a

similar exercise, but at a different scale.

So thank you for that.

DEPUTY EXECUTIVE OFFICER SEGALL: If I could

speak to that just briefly. So it's really I think to us,

and our teams are working closely together on this, that

climate action plans are a particularly important tool.

Now, some jurisdictions may not have a formal Climate

Action Plan, but still can take affirmative action

consistent with the Scoping Plan.

So one of the themes that you'll see throughout

our collective work is making this usable for local

officials, translating that into sort of CEQA working and

to local government working tools to be clear that action

is consistent with the Scoping Plan, whether that's

promoting dense infill affordable housing, promoting say

vehicle charging, promoting building decarbonization in an

equitable way. All are consistent, all are appropriate in

providing many of the tools to help downscale some of

these State targets.

And one of the truths here is that the State has,

you know, as Professor Sperling noted, a really important

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

312

portfolio of programs and policies, but they depend upon

local action to be implemented, not just effectively, but

equitably. So it's just critical to partner with local

government officials. In fact, that is critical to the

success of the Plan.

BOARD MEMBER SERNA: Thanks, Craig.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Board Member De La Torre.

BOARD MEMBER DE LA TORRE: Thank you.

I'm going to associate myself with Dr. Balmes

remarks on a couple of things. One, well, he mentioned

wildfires, and so I'll start there. Eighteen of the 20

largest wildfires in California history over the last

hundred years or so have occurred since 2003, and four of

those were last year. So for about 10 years now on this

Board, I have been asking for wildfire to be included in

our thinking because it's happening. To not include it in

the modeling, to not include in our thinking is to deny

reality.

And it has a couple of impacts. One, it raises

the bar, without a doubt, in terms of how many GHGs, we

have to compensate for, and two, it forces actions that we

haven't done before. The working -- the natural lands

impacts that were -- that were mentioned earlier. So,

yes, it makes things harder, but it makes things more

real. And to not do that -- and this is in private

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

313

meetings for the last 10 years I've been saying, we're

cheating. So to the extent we have a realistic number,

and I know it's a moving target, then we are not cheating.

We are reflecting reality. And our controls that we do,

whatever it is -- whatever policy direction we take to

control that are realistic and going to have real impact.

So thank you for doing that. I'm really, really pleased

that we're finally going to have that embedded.

Second, again with Dr. Balmes' comments, I

absolutely agree with him on the gas tax refund, not a

good idea. Oil companies have shown time and again that

if you give them something, there is no guarantee -- in

fact, most of the time they -- they're -- they go the

opposite way of just taking the money and raising prices

and so the consumer doesn't see the difference.

The -- I -- I've seen these pricing analytics for

the last 20 years. And there is not rhyme or reason to

oil imports, oil production, refining. It just is

completely random. The profits keep going up and there's

no reflection in reality for consumers. So thank you, Dr.

Balmes, for mentioning that. I was going to, but since

you did, it's the right thing.

And then finally, my mantra every time we have

this conservation. There were three sectors that did not

contribute to us reaching our 2020 targets and I'm going

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

314

to repeat them again, and I'm going to repeat them every

time we have this conversation, transportation, natural

and working lands, and short-lived climate pollutants did

not contribute to us reaching our 2020 targets.

A lost of folks were mentioning about, you know,

how we get there for 2030. We do not get there if those

three sectors do not contribute period. And so, for me,

that's what I want to get to and what we really need to be

focusing on, if we're going to hit that 2030 target that

is going to be very difficult to reach.

So with that, thank you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you.

Board Member Takvorian.

BOARD MEMBER TAKVORIAN: Thank you, Chair, and

thanks to the staff, and the EJAC members, and the

stakeholders who were here again today. I really

appreciate this presentation today, because it's the first

one I think to the Board -- and I want to emphasize that,

to the Board, because I know that you've been making

presentations, staff, in -- at a very technical level and

really discussing the strategies. But I think this is the

first time for this Scoping Plan, that the Board has

actually had a chance to reflect on the actual strategies

that are being modeled, and it allows the Board and the

public to discuss the assumptions and the proposed

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

315

strategies.

I think it's missing some key elements and I'm

going to agree with Member De La Torre on the last thing

that he said in regards to what is missing, but I'll get

to that in a second.

My questions I think are more about the process

by the Board will evaluate the policy proposals. So

that's -- that's what my questions are going on. And I

hope if you can start to answer those questions today,

that would be awesome, if not, that we begin to

incorporate this into our next discussion.

So I want to recognize that that -- the

difficulty of incorporating diverse assumptions into each

of the scenarios. I think that you had to make some

choices and you did that, but I think it's clear from the

Board discussion and from the public discussion that a

combination of strategies as -- is necessary. So the

question is how will the Board be able to mix and match

scenario inputs prior to receiving the Draft Scoping Plan,

because clearly from just Board comments and the public

comments, there's -- there's different ideas about how

these alternative strategies can be achieved. So I want

to -- wanted to ask about that and ask you to talk about

that first.

And I think that we need to be talking about

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

316

these alternatives from a high level first and agree on

the criteria, which seem to be is it feasible, is it

affordable, does it reduce GHGs and air pollution

significantly, does it improve health, does it reduce

impacts in disadvantaged communities. So the question is

how will the Board receive the information to allow us to

evaluate against those questions and probably others? But

to me, those are kind of the core questions that the Board

should be able to answer as it makes a decision about what

the Draft Scoping Plan should look like.

So transportation as an example. I want to say

so slide 9 assumes complete ZEV transition by 2035, which

would require massive funding to buy out non-ZEV vehicles,

which I think will likely make it infeasible. So I'd want

is to know just on this one strategy what is the cost of

that buyout? How could those dollars be applied to the

mass transit system which would reduce VMT over --

overall?

And I think in the same way that Dr. Balmes

lifted up the transformation of the agricultural industry

to reduce the use of pest -- pesticides, we should be

considering that same type of transformation for

transportation. It doesn't begin with cars and end --

begin and end with cars and trucks. We really need to

think about this in a more global way. So that's one

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

317

example where I think we could dig into and want more

information. So the question is what -- what's the cost

of that buyout?

And I feel like I missed, if it's there, the

detail of where the potential transition of heavy-duty

vehicles is reflected and how is that reflected in terms

of a contribution.

How are the market mechanisms in Cap-and-Trade

reflected in the alternatives, because they're not called

out in any of the definition of the alternatives, but I

know that there's consideration of them. In the same way,

how does the Board evaluate CCS as a strategy? Clearly,

there's disagreement. There's disagreement about the

science. So when do we have that conversation in order to

dig into that?

And lastly, I just want to mark that the public

health equity analyses that we've talked about in other

meetings and that I think a lot of us and members of the

public are really looking forward to has to also be a set

of criteria that we are evaluating the strategies against.

So how much health benefit are we receiving from each of

those measures as well as the strategies overall?

So those are my questions. I know those are a

lot and I can go pack and repeat them, if necessary. And

I know that some of them are more overarching and perhaps

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

318

there's another time to have those discussions, but I

wanted to get them on the table.

So thank you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Thank you.

I think we will probably be able to tackle some

of -- of the questions that you asked and some of them

might require a little more follow-up. I mean, I will say

from a process standpoint, my understanding, and staff can

correct me if I'm wrong, is that there's not going to be

another round of modeling before the draft, but there will

be an opportunity as we discuss the draft to ask for some

additional modeling. Well, I don't know to the extent to

which we would be able to ask for -- for additional

modeling specifically, so I'm going to turn it over to

staff, so that they can give you sort of the proper steps

that are going to happen as we evaluate the draft.

DEPUTY EXECUTIVE OFFICER SAHOTA: Sure. Happy to

answer that question. I think it's worth talking about

how intensive the modeling can be, so that you have an

understanding of why it's so hard for us to turn something

around quickly when somebody has a new idea or new

legislation comes out.

Just to do the PATHWAYS modeling, it took us,

once we got the inputs in December, through early

mid-March to get the results back, fact check them, gut

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

319

check them, make sure they made sense, and then pass on

those results to UCI to do the health analysis, the air

quality analysis. And then that all goes to Rhodium to do

the economic analysis. So there's a sequencing here that

builds off of the very first model, which is PATHWAYS for

emissions. And the modeling you saw today was PATHWAYS.

What we will have available at a public workshop

in the coming weeks is information on the economics of the

different scenarios. We will have tables, as we're

required to do under AB 197, on the costs for the

different measures. So I think Board Member Takvorian

when you asked what was the dollar amount for that measure

where we have to buy back vehicles, we will have that data

and those numbers available as part of the Draft Scoping

Plan.

And that affords everyone an opportunity to look

at the merits of not just the individual measures, the

deployment rates and the technology that we're choosing,

but also how much that's going to cost, and also the air

quality benefits. And there's an opportunity to say,

well, we don't want to spend it on Measure Y. What if we

did Measure Z? And as part of the discussion for the

first draft of the Scoping Plan that happens in June, the

Board can then have a discussion do we want to do away

with some of the measures as part of the Final Scoping

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

320

Plan and settle on -- one or two -- oops, sorry about

that. This will be bad.

I just broke a toy from -- sorry. I just broke a

bracelet that my six-year old nephew made me for my

birthday a couple weeks ago. Hopefully, they're not

watching.

(Laughter.)

DEPUTY EXECUTIVE OFFICER SAHOTA: But, yes, so

there's an opportunity to, after the first draft of the

Scoping Plan, have all that data available, conversation

with the Environmental Justice Advisory Committee, amongst

yourselves, and even consider new legislation, because

there's always the potential that, at any point, we could

get new legislation that accelerates something, introduces

a new program, or a new feature that we also have to

include in the modeling before we settle on the final

Scoping Plan.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Okay.

BOARD MEMBER TAKVORIAN: If your six-year old

nephew is watching, that we should offer him a job now

or -- sorry.

(Laughter.)

BOARD MEMBER TAKVORIAN: But I -- but I don't

under -- I don't understand then how does the health

analysis get incorporated, given the flow that you just

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

321

described.

DEPUTY EXECUTIVE OFFICER SAHOTA: So once we have

the data from the health analysis, we get a chance to look

at the scenarios, and the different features, and decide

do we want to accelerate some things because the health

analysis indicates we could get more reductions for GHGs

or more health benefits from those actions, and it makes

sense to move those into the Final Scoping Plan.

So as part of -- we've constructed these

scenarios, but we'll also have individual measures by

their health impacts, their air quality impacts, and their

cost impacts. And so that almost plug and play that you

kind of mentioned at the beginning in your question, that

opportunity exists as part of the discussion of the first

draft and before we settle on what's going to be the final

draft, so it does happen as part of that process.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Can I just ask a clarifying

question following up from that just to make sure we

understand the sequencing? That the -- the economic and

the health analysis that you just spoke about will be

reflected in the draft. And so when the Board looks at

the draft in June and has the conversation about that,

that will be the opportunity to ask for more analysis of

particular issues.

DEPUTY EXECUTIVE OFFICER SAHOTA: So we will have

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

322

the health and the economic impacts, the scenarios as

they're constructed now, but also the individual actions

in those scenarios. For example, in Alternative 1, we

remove all of the legacy ICE vehicles out of the road.

That's going to provide some air quality benefits versus

letting -- or end-of-life determine when those vehicles

are taken off the road in the other scenarios.

So just looking across those individual lines,

you'll be able to discern what's the cost of each of those

and what's the health benefit of each of those.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Okay.

All right. Vice Chair Berg.

VICE CHAIR BERG: Yes. And I will be quick. I

seem to have gotten myself this -- I'm going to move this

way. Okay. Sorry.

I'd just like to wrap-up the conversation with

how we're going to include the EJAC comments. And so last

time we did put it in as appendix. And it seems to me,

I'm really -- I can understand the amount of work, and

we've all acknowledged the amount of work, that has been

done. And we understand that there is also a lot of other

stakeholders. There's a lot of other quite frankly

politics that come into it, economics, everything else.

We -- I think one of the things I'd like to be

very clear about, we are not the sole decision-makers

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

323

on -- on what goes in here. We are influenced by all

sorts of people, and this is a true balancing act.

That said, the amount of work that the EJAC is

doing -- and one of the things I keep hearing is how do

their voices get heard? And I'm just wondering, after --

I did go back and reread the 2017. And I'm just wondering

under each chapter, if it would be possible to summarize

the impacts of whatever scenario it is that we choose from

their perspective. And so that there is a mechanism in

which all of their discussion, all of their concerns --

well, all might be -- I don't want to -- their major

concerns, their major discussions, because as policy

readers read this, how do they hear from an EJAC

perspective what it means to their communities.

Because although this is a plan, we're going to

take each item and really drill down to the details that

fall under our purview, but what about the others and how

do we hear that? I'm afraid if we just, once again, do an

addendum that honestly it feels to me it does get lost.

And so I don't need you to respond right now, because I

haven't given you any heads-up on this, but I'd love it if

you would take it back, maybe work with Chanell, talk

about some -- yeah, I gave you a job, Chanell.

(Laughter.)

VICE CHAIR BERG: You were so close of getting

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

324

out of here, right? Just talk about how we could, in

fact, do it differently, so it is heard and truly

validated differently that we're listening.

Thank you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Can I just respond briefly to

that? I agree with you and we have already started having

conversations about what that would look like and how we

would operationalize that in the draft, so we are --

VICE CHAIR BERG: I should know that, Chair

Randolph, and so thank you very much.

(Laughter.)

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Okay. Appreciate it.

All right. Any other Board Member comments?

Okay. Seeing none, I just really appreciate

staff's work. The explanation of this complex modeling

was extremely helpful. We really appreciate you taking

the time to walk -- walk us through all of this and give

us a lot to think about between now and when the draft

comes back. And the Board member comments I thought were

really helpful. And -- and I appreciated your discussion,

Rajinder, about the issue of uncertainties and how that

gets discussed in the Plan.

You know, Connie Cho in particular asked some

really specific questions about CCS, and a lot of

commenters had -- had questions about it. And I think the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

325

draft will really provide an opportunity to put more

layers of nuance around that conversation in a way that

the modeling really can't, because the modeling is so sort

of limit in terms of discussing things like the

technologies, the potential deployment, and the potential

different uses that we may or may not be using CCS for or

what the potential is for carbon removal strategies and

what the technological issues are around both of those

different strategies. And so I appreciate that we'll have

the opportunity to explore that more in the draft.

I think that is it for the discussion on this

item. And again, thank you for all of your work.

And now I think we are ready for open public

comment.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank you, Madam Chair. We

have two commenters who wish to speak at this time. The

first commenter -- well, the first two commenters will be

Dave Cook and a phone number ending in 990.

Dave, I have activated your microphone. Please

state your name -- oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead and unmute.

DAVID COOK: Yes. You can hear me?

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Yes.

DAVID COOK: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, and

fellow Board members. My name is David Cook and I am

working with a consortium of California small businesses.

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

326

We have been proposing and moving forward with

low-emissions locomotive retrofits, including one

zero-emissions locomotive that operates one day every two

weeks at a small railyard in Anaheim, California.

Recently, a large mining company in Australia has

announced that they are investing in an ambitious

gravity-powered infinity train project. A train of loaded

rail cars from the mine going downhill will use

regenerative braking to charge the locomotive batteries,

which then allows the train to bring the empty train back

up hill to the mine on battery power.

This is done without the need to use grid

electricity to charge the batteries and the locomotives,

making this a carbon negative short-line railroad that is

generating its own renewable electricity with the

locomotives.

Our coalition is proposing a path for CARB to

take a leadership role in allowing California to beat the

Australians in the race to be the first in the world with

a fully operational carbon negative short-line railroad.

This would involve a few incremental, but shovel-ready,

projects that involve California based small businesses,

small railyards, and short-line railroads.

We propose three overlapping projects that will

achieve full-time operation of a light-duty zero-emission

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

327

switching locomotive for sorting railcars at several small

railyards through the use of a CORE voucher, operate two

net zero medium horsepower locomotives in heavy-duty

switching service at multiple railyards, and then convert

a short-line railroad at a California mine. It's a carbon

negative operation with four battery operated line-haul

locomotives.

The budget for these seven battery locomotives

supported for two-year long demonstrations at multiple

locations should be less than what California's currently

spending on the purchase of only five Tier 4 diesel

passenger locomotives or approximately $35 million for

seven battery-electric locomotives.

We look forward to engaging with CARB leadership

and staff along with the Legislature to allow California

to take on this challenge. I will provide an outline of

this proposal to CARB leadership. If any Board member

would like a personal briefing on this, I'm more than

happy to follow up with your staff and set that up or

answer any questions someone may have now.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank you.

Phone number ending in 990, I have activated your

microphone. Please state your name for the record and you

can begin.

HARVEY EDER: Hello. Am I being heard?

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

328

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Yes.

HARVEY EDER: Okay. Good afternoon. My name is

Harvey Eder. I'm talking for myself and for the Public

Solar Power Coalition, et cetera.

One process thing, today, paralleling this from

one o'clock to recently, there was a plan meeting, AQMP,

for '22 plan for South Coast. Please try to not schedule,

you know, parallel stuff. You can't do both.

So I -- anyway, two things. Low Carbon Fuel

Standard and the history of that. Okay. We started

working on that in '07, '08. And Mr. Corey didn't a

senior position there, but was instrumental in that. I

was taken aback and tried to nip this thing in the bud,

but -- this stuff with, you know, waste systems, with

natural gas, methane, okay, from -- they're saying dairies

and waste systems. Okay. It's methane. It's fossil

fuels.

The Arctic is melting and we brought this all to

you, to the District and you all. In September of '19,

the cover article on National Geographic is the Arctic is

warming. The tundra is melting. Now that's all on fossil

fuel system, all right?

So before you go trying to do this garbage

again -- and you're looking at drug-resistant antibiotics

and that's been totally ignored and put that in the

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

329

record. We brought this up with Sam Wade. We put it in

there. We said now we need you -- you just burn it, your

flare it, you get 5, 10 percent. You don't get this --

these big numbers and big money. Ten trillion dollars

spent on these subsidies. Do you hear that?

Okay. This is outrageous. It's -- so you pay

for what we did up in the Arctic before you get any of

this credit. Straight up. Enough is enough. And the

reports that are coming out -- the modeling reports --

there was model of models, a hundred different reports

done a few years ago and they said the numbers are way

worse than -- and the numbers were -- for -- are much

higher than those.

So that's -- and that was started by Pickens, you

know T. Boon Pickens.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thirty seconds.

HARVEY EDER: That's the clean energy in these

folks. We need a political economic study and looking at

equity. And right now, this has got to be happening at

all the international, national, local levels, and the

world is changing, all right?

So -- and you did not study the Solar New Deal.

No one did. And we got run out of court. We're asking

you to support us in getting the trans -- the tape from

that and a record that we put in that they would purge --

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

330

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank you.

HARVEY EDER: -- but would not send us a copy.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank. That concludes your

time.

HARVEY EDER: It's on you folks.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: We have one more commenter,

a phone number ending in 528. I have activated your

microphone. Please state your name for the record and you

can begin.

LAURA ROSENBERGER HAIDER: Laura Rosenberger

Haider. I think we need -- of course we need 30 percent

organic agriculture by 2030, like a lot sooner. And we

need for the harbor craft we need hydrogen cell

technology, and incentives, and grant money for them to

upgrade. And the last thing we need to like not to allow

those zombie oil wells to rework their wells. And they'll

just drill deeper and -- especially -- especially not the

ones that are right next to neighborhoods, like

environmental justice communities next to sensitive

populations. We have to stop them and that will reduce a

lot of emissions.

And one of the reasons again crude oil is that it

also -- it contains toxic heavy metals that need to be

refined out. And some of those are linked to dementia --

or early dementia. And for the workers that work in both

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

331

those industries or just work in the industry where they

have to burn a lot of fuel like oil industry fuel. It

would be very dangerous to their health.

All right. Thanks.

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Thank you.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: Does that conclude public

comment?

BOARD CLERK GARCIA: Yes, that concludes the

commenters.

CHAIR RANDOLPH: All right. Thank you. This

meeting is adjourned. Our next meeting will be our April

7th joint meeting with the California Transportation

Commission and Housing and Community Development

Department.

Have a good evening, everyone.

(Thereupon the Air Resources Board meeting

adjourned at 5:12 p.m.)

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171

332

CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

I, JAMES F. PETERS, a Certified Shorthand

Reporter of the State of California, do hereby certify:

That I am a disinterested person herein; that the

foregoing California Air Resources Board meeting was

reported in shorthand by me, James F. Peters, a Certified

Shorthand Reporter of the State of California, and was

thereafter transcribed, under my direction, by

computer-assisted transcription;

I further certify that I am not of counsel or

attorney for any of the parties to said meeting nor in any

way interested in the outcome of said meeting.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand

this 11th day of April, 2022.

JAMES F. PETERS, CSR

Certified Shorthand Reporter

License No. 10063

J&K COURT REPORTING, LLC (916)476-3171